DM's: Are you afraid to kill PC's because of how players might react?

[Grendel_T_Troll]

I am currently in a campaign where dying is cheap.

It doesn't have anything to do with a particular edition of the game (The campaign is 11 years old, going through 3 and 1/2 editions) just the way certain players are.

One of our players can't face death. Seriously. Unless there is an immediate resurrection methood available, death is very uncomfortable.

I found this out when I ran a game myself with the group. I had a player who wanted the "Hunter of the Dead" prestiege class. I created an organization of individuals where this prestige class came from, in my campaign world. One of the banes I added was the ban on resurrection. The logic being, for this organization, was that ANY inturruption of the natural life cycle was an abomination. That meant that the character (who was a cleric) couldn't be resurrected, nor cast any dead raising spells upon anyone else. Despite protests (not from the one playing the Hunter, mind you) the player agreed to accept this.

Well, as fate would have it, the Day came. The cleric ended up dead.

The look on this person's face (not the one playing the cleric) was priceless. This caused this player to seriously freak out. Even as the other player was creating a new character, this one was begging me to change my mind. I wouldn't relent; my decision was firm. The player was in tears so we broke from the game earlier than normal.

I guess my message is know your players. Find out how they react to these certain controvertial concepts and decide what course of action you should go in your campaign.

 

[igavskoga]

...snip...

I have NO problem killing a player's character.

Players are informed of this up front. I can be brutal. In my world, heroes take the risk - and sometimes, heroes die. [Me: It is my personal philosophy that PC's are not inherently all that special. They are often above average, yes, well above average in a lot of cases, but it is their actions and choices which make them what and who they are. It is their actions and choices which shapes the world around them which, in turn, shapes them.]

Previously, I made new characters come in one level lower than the party current (so there was no metagame benefit vs being res'd), they got [some] random magic items approprpiate for their race/class (like any starting character in my campaign), any basic equipment they wanted which fit their race/class and that they could carry, and a base sum of "pocket change". If their character died in the pursuit of or completion of their personal or backstory goals, or at least in the idiom which they set themselves, they got bonus "cash" to spend on magic and gear above the basics.

...snip...

I also use a variant Raise Dead mechanic inspired by The Game Mechanics article/spells, which lays on temporary negative levels rather than permanent level loss. However, if a character is recovering the temp neg levels after being raised/res'd, and dies again, they can't be brought back if the temp neg levels applied by another casting + their current temp negative levels would make them level 0 or lower.

...snip...

That's pretty much how I operate, tho I didn't know there was a codified variant rule for the negative levels bit. Thanks for doing all my typing for me Warlock.

2. Whether or not a dead PC's items are buried with them or if the party gets to loot the body

This depends entirely upon circumstances of death. I don't make all the dead PC's gear go *poof*, nor do I force actions upon the party- "DM: In the aftermath of the battle you bury all your late friend's gear with him." If the gear can be recovered, and is, then it is up to the party what to do with it. They may keep it or sell it. They may give it to the "new guy". I've even had them give it to a needy cause - some organization under siege that needs some help. Most often they actually bury it with the corpse (In one or two cases returning for it much later due to some immediate need) or return it to the family of the deceased. I have been blessed with players who have never taken advantage of this system to boost up their power beyond limits that I would have a problem with.

3. Rules for switching characters without PC death

If the player is getting bored with his current character, or what he made turns out to not quite be what he wanted or expected, I have no problems with switching out. It may take a few sessions to find a good time to swap that fits in with what is going on. Occassionally I allow them to adjust the current PC's class/feat/skill makeup. Again, I've yet to have a player take advantage of this so my guidelines are relatively lenient.

Is it true that people without cut and dried rules in these regards are more likely to be afraid to kill PC's?

IME, yes, I have found this to be true in every intsance. In game's I've played in and DM'd, if there were clear rules on what happens upon PC death, the situation isn't awkward, and things proceed along smoothly. Typically NPC's who cause the death and survive become impromptu recurring badguys or spawn sidequests as the group is bent on revenge. In games that I have played where this was glossed over it often became a very awkward affair, typically leading to resentment as the player felt slighted by an off the cuff ruling, or the DM in question felt resentment in being "forced" to retcon the death, "forced" to massively fudge rolls, and/or "guilt" at causing it in the first place.

Clearly defining things upfront, in an honest and straightforward manner, is one of the best ways to pre-empt needless drama.

 

[Umbran]

Also, post if you actually have the following rules in your house rulebook:
1. Replacement character rules (how much x.p. and how much g.p. they start with)
2. Whether or not a dead PC's items are buried with them or if the party gets to loot the body
3. Rules for switching characters without PC death.

1. I have a guideline in my head - they come in at the party average level, or one below, depending on the case. They start with wealth in the vague vicinity of what the rest of the party has. And none of my players has ever asked what the guideline is.

2. No rule in my book. I has never occurred to me that such a rule would be needed.

3. No rule. If a player wants to change characters, they can talk to me about it.

Is it true that people without cut and dried rules in these regards are more likely to be afraid to kill PC's?

I don't think I've ever played in a group that worried about such things, and PCs have soemtimes died, sometimes not. I don't think there's much correlation.

 

[the shmoopie]

Are you afraid to kill PC's because of how players might react?

Nope, not in the slightest, the only time I hesitate to kill a PC is if it will drastically take away from the story.

Also, post if you actually have the following rules in your house rulebook:
1. Replacement character rules (how much x.p. and how much g.p. they start with)
2. Whether or not a dead PC's items are buried with them or if the party gets to loot the body
3. Rules for switching characters without PC death.

1.) They start at the average party level, they start with the amount of gold an NPC would have at that level, and no more than half of that gold can go into one item.
2.) Usually the PC's will bury their fallen ally with weapon and armor and holy symbol when appropriate, the other stuff they split amongst themselves.
3.) Same as with PC death. Provided they player in question can give a good story reason why his/her PC would leave and the new one join up.

Is it true that people without cut and dried rules in these regards are more likely to be afraid to kill PC's?

Yes, for me anyway. I didn't kill a PC until I descided on these rules.

 

[lukelightning]

Nope, not in the slightest, the only time I hesitate to kill a PC is if it will drastically take away from the story.

See, I've abandoned the idea of a "story." I figure the story will make itself out of the adventure. A "random/meaningless" death can be just as dramatic as one vs. the BBEG; it's all a matter of the atmosphere during the combat.

p.s. I'm not saying having a story is wrong; I'd just rather go without. Plus I'm too lazy! I had all these grand ideas for a long-term, adventure-spanning story, but it was too much work, and both the players and myself kept forgetting the story leads.

 

[Vuron]

I'm kinda confused as too the justification of bringing in a brand new character at the same level as the rest of the party when raise dead causes a very definite penalty. It seems unless you remove the lost HD from Raise Dead that only discourages people from staying with the same character after death.

Considering the self-correcting nature of the XP system the raised or new character catch up pretty quickly so the party isn't faced with too much loss of overall power.

 

[diaglo]

See, I've abandoned the idea of a "story." I figure the story will make itself out of the adventure. A "random/meaningless" death can be just as dramatic as one vs. the BBEG; it's all a matter of the atmosphere during the combat.

qft.

 

[Nifft]

See, I've abandoned the idea of a "story." I figure the story will make itself out of the adventure.

Me too, sorta.

The "story" is two different kinds of events:
1/ Stuff that would have happened anyway ("meta-plot"); and
2/ Stuff that is directly the fault of the PCs, coming back to haunt them.

The PCs can start to affect #1 as they get to higher and higher levels -- "Atlantis is sinking!" -- "No it's not. I have an Epic Tenser's Floating Island-Disk prepared!" -- but they can't be everywhere at once, even when they do get to be Epic.

Nowadays I mostly don't even bother coming up with solutions to the various problems I pose them. Their own devious minds are more than adequate, and I don't feel bummed if they miss clues about how they're "supposed" to solve something.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Sejs]

Nope. Adventuring is dangerous work. Somebody could get hurt.

 

[shilsen]

I don't have to worry about it since I've effectively taken PC death out of my game.

There are a number of factors in the decision. I'm running an Eberron campaign (close on 2 years and nearly 50 sessions now), and easy return from the dead doesn't fit either the campaign flavor or my preferences. The campaign is heavily player/PC-driven, with plots and the game's direction emerging from PC choices, actions and backgrounds, rather than any overarching plot I have planned. So a couple of dead PCs means the driving forces behind many of the things that the PCs are involved with are gone. And lastly, I run a horribly difficult game, where theoretically weaker enemies (lower CR, underequipped) often give the PCs a serious run for their money, and PCs drop below -10 on a regular basis. In 46 sessions, 24 PCs have gone below -10.

So I have a rule whereby PCs can use action pts (and latterly, swashbuckling cards), which they get every session, to survive a killing blow/effect and remain alive at -9 and stable.

Hence, PCs run a very slim chance of actually dying IMC, and not one has actually done so yet. It doesn't make the combats any the less exciting, because PCs have lost battles on a number of occasions, and there are always consequences for such losses, detah just not being one of them.