I was the character who died and I think it is what the situation would have warranted from the intelligent creature. I like the realism that we approach though over the heroism. Just my opinion and what I believe all of our group likes and warrents more than the heroism aspect. Heroism will come as the story progresses. So, kudos to you Destan, I would have done what you did here. I just don't like the way the rules are on both sides of the spectrum if the prone or helpless individual is being protected by a companion. And that goes for both monsters and PC's. No rewinding though and I like where we have gone! Keep it up.
DMs: Fight to Win or Fight for Fun?
- Thread starter Destan
- Start date
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
In some ways I feel like this is asking, "Say you're playing a sport involving a ball that's about the size of your head. Should you be allowed to touch the ball with your hands?"
In some sports, sure; in other sports, no. You should play the game that appeals to you and your group. Just make sure that one person isn't playing soccer while the rest of the group plays basketball.
I've played low-lethality games, and they can be immensely satisfying. I've played hi-lethality games, and they can be immensely satisfying.
If the players are expecting or wanting a low-lethality game, it can be a real bummer when one of the PCs dies in a random fight. You don't want bummers in your entertainment time.
But if they're expecting or wanting a high-lethality game, then the death of a PC can actually be a great moment, something memorable.
In high-lethality games, I think that undead are great opponents, precisely because they're likelier (IMO) to commit CDGs.
One of my favorite gaming moments recently was when the first-level PCs squared off against four zombies. I had the zombies do nonlethal damage, which mildly confused the players; the zombies were just slamming people up against walls. It was not too bad a fight, until the sorcerer got thrown against a wall and knocked unconscious. Then all the zombies stopped what they were doing and rushed over to the unconscious sorcerer, absorbing attacks of opportunity on the way. The next round, they all attempted a CDG on the sorcerer (renewing their moans of "Brainnnnnnnns!" as they did so), and two of them succeeded, and I described the zombies ripping the sorcerer apart, biting into his head, eviscerating him.
The zombies all died within the next two rounds, but the damage was done; and those PCs will remain terrified of zombies for the rest of their adventuring career.
Daniel
In some sports, sure; in other sports, no. You should play the game that appeals to you and your group. Just make sure that one person isn't playing soccer while the rest of the group plays basketball.
I've played low-lethality games, and they can be immensely satisfying. I've played hi-lethality games, and they can be immensely satisfying.
If the players are expecting or wanting a low-lethality game, it can be a real bummer when one of the PCs dies in a random fight. You don't want bummers in your entertainment time.
But if they're expecting or wanting a high-lethality game, then the death of a PC can actually be a great moment, something memorable.
In high-lethality games, I think that undead are great opponents, precisely because they're likelier (IMO) to commit CDGs.
One of my favorite gaming moments recently was when the first-level PCs squared off against four zombies. I had the zombies do nonlethal damage, which mildly confused the players; the zombies were just slamming people up against walls. It was not too bad a fight, until the sorcerer got thrown against a wall and knocked unconscious. Then all the zombies stopped what they were doing and rushed over to the unconscious sorcerer, absorbing attacks of opportunity on the way. The next round, they all attempted a CDG on the sorcerer (renewing their moans of "Brainnnnnnnns!" as they did so), and two of them succeeded, and I described the zombies ripping the sorcerer apart, biting into his head, eviscerating him.
The zombies all died within the next two rounds, but the damage was done; and those PCs will remain terrified of zombies for the rest of their adventuring career.
Daniel
Abraxas
Explorer
Was trying to escape an option for the intelligent undead?
Assuming this is the same situation described in this thread, the creature did risk getting cut down without ever getting to land his CdG attack. If escape was an option I think trying to get away would be a more logical choice of actions.
If escape was not an option, taking someone with you is always a valid choice.
Your situation reminds me of a campaign I ran awhile ago, where a kobold CdG'd a downed PC barbarian, the kobolds were backed into a corner and the PC's weren't giving any quarter, so when the Barb went unconcious it was insert shortsword A into eyesocket B.
Assuming this is the same situation described in this thread, the creature did risk getting cut down without ever getting to land his CdG attack. If escape was an option I think trying to get away would be a more logical choice of actions.
If escape was not an option, taking someone with you is always a valid choice.
Your situation reminds me of a campaign I ran awhile ago, where a kobold CdG'd a downed PC barbarian, the kobolds were backed into a corner and the PC's weren't giving any quarter, so when the Barb went unconcious it was insert shortsword A into eyesocket B.
Raven Crowking
First Post
I'd have done the CDG. Especially with ghouls or ghoul-like undead.
RC
RC
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
I tend to do CdG and overkill more with my less intelligent monsters. In the 'take someone down with me'.. sure.
Of course, I run an admittably lethal game and my players expect that.
On the flip side of the coin.. I skimmed the above mentioned thread and agree with MACLARREN's thought of a loophole in the rules.
I also can't imagine even a very desperate BBG carefully leaning over to CdG an enemy who lays beneath a dangerous opponent that could very well slaughter him in one strike.
If a PC had tried this on me, doing a CdG to a BBEG with a mook body-guarding him by standing protectively over his body, I would rule that the PC was denied dex vs the body-guard.
I would also, as the BodyGuarding type Trip, Grapple, or Push (variant Bullrush ) on the AoO. Such as action would interrupt the CdG attempt.
Look on the bright side... you had a Game to play!!
{my 'monthly' game should be this Sunday... I hope }
Of course, I run an admittably lethal game and my players expect that.
On the flip side of the coin.. I skimmed the above mentioned thread and agree with MACLARREN's thought of a loophole in the rules.
I also can't imagine even a very desperate BBG carefully leaning over to CdG an enemy who lays beneath a dangerous opponent that could very well slaughter him in one strike.
If a PC had tried this on me, doing a CdG to a BBEG with a mook body-guarding him by standing protectively over his body, I would rule that the PC was denied dex vs the body-guard.
I would also, as the BodyGuarding type Trip, Grapple, or Push (variant Bullrush ) on the AoO. Such as action would interrupt the CdG attempt.
Look on the bright side... you had a Game to play!!
{my 'monthly' game should be this Sunday... I hope }
Aust Diamondew
First Post
You acted rightly IMO.
Your decision is fine by me; I might have done the same though I don't normally play ghouls that way - I usually have them paralyse all the PCs then start chewing on them. 
Like you, I play monsters simulationist style - _they_ are fighting to win, but I am GMing according to "what do I think they'd do now" not "what should they do to win" - those two are often the same, but not always. Certainly since the GM has omniscience, NPCs played totally optimally will be exceedingly & unrealistically deadly.
Like you, I play monsters simulationist style - _they_ are fighting to win, but I am GMing according to "what do I think they'd do now" not "what should they do to win" - those two are often the same, but not always. Certainly since the GM has omniscience, NPCs played totally optimally will be exceedingly & unrealistically deadly.
Infiniti2000
First Post
I'm okay with a CDG on a PC. I've done it. I just don't think it's warranted in this case. The disadvantages far outweigh the benefits.
1. As Abraxus asked, could the creatures escape? Or was this a defend-to-the-death scenario?
2. If the goal of the undead was to kill a PC, did they all attack a single enemy?
3. With the paralyzation of one of the opponents, the undead must have though it possible to actually win at that point. Paralyzing the one who was standing over the fallen comrade was certain a logical choice; indeed, the better choice since the undead was at a measly 4hp.
Reverse the situation, consider the PC's in that case. Would one of the PC's risk certain death with an AoO merely to make sure he killed one of the enemy or would he try to win or even escape?
Like I said before, was it fun? I try to go out of my way to not kill PCs. I have no fear of killing PCs, don't get me wrong, but in a situation like this I would not have CDG'd the PC. Now, Pielorhino's scenario sounds like a lot of fun. That's something that you explicitly plan out, though, and moreover the zombies are brainless. Hmm, I might try that ....
1. As Abraxus asked, could the creatures escape? Or was this a defend-to-the-death scenario?
2. If the goal of the undead was to kill a PC, did they all attack a single enemy?
3. With the paralyzation of one of the opponents, the undead must have though it possible to actually win at that point. Paralyzing the one who was standing over the fallen comrade was certain a logical choice; indeed, the better choice since the undead was at a measly 4hp.
Reverse the situation, consider the PC's in that case. Would one of the PC's risk certain death with an AoO merely to make sure he killed one of the enemy or would he try to win or even escape?
Like I said before, was it fun? I try to go out of my way to not kill PCs. I have no fear of killing PCs, don't get me wrong, but in a situation like this I would not have CDG'd the PC. Now, Pielorhino's scenario sounds like a lot of fun. That's something that you explicitly plan out, though, and moreover the zombies are brainless. Hmm, I might try that ....
Queen_Dopplepopolis
First Post
I've never seen my DM use the CDG. In some ways, I wish he would. We players don't fear death... in a past game, I have tried as hard as I could to be killed (was experiencing some PC burn out and decided that I'd try to kill her 
) but still, the NPCs back off the moment a PC gets knocked out.
Anyway! Like I was saying... the PCs in our group (especially our old D&D group) came to expect life - which lead to some *major* problems with one of the PCs died and refused to deal with it by flat out saying it wasn't fair and that they weren't going to write up a new character.
So - while I'm sure your players are a little miffed - it's probably for the best that they learn that NPCs can employ lethal force in the same uncaring fashion as the PCs.
) but still, the NPCs back off the moment a PC gets knocked out.Anyway! Like I was saying... the PCs in our group (especially our old D&D group) came to expect life - which lead to some *major* problems with one of the PCs died and refused to deal with it by flat out saying it wasn't fair and that they weren't going to write up a new character.
So - while I'm sure your players are a little miffed - it's probably for the best that they learn that NPCs can employ lethal force in the same uncaring fashion as the PCs.
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