DMs: Fight to Win or Fight for Fun?

[Zjelani]

To answer the question in the subject - Fight for Fun. I hate it hate it hate it when a DM gets the "DM vs. Players" attitude. That's the one thing that has made me actually leave a group. I do realize that's just my preference though as both player and DM. It's like mustard. I hate mustard to the very pits of my stomach and hope to raise my kids the same way. It's a nasty icky thing. But if someone wants to eat mustard, it's their preference and I'm not stopping them.

However, as to the situation at hand I suppose a CDG is justified. I probably would have played up the drama as much as possible (making it apparent that the creature was going to CDG, giving the characters a chance to react and try to valiantly save the PC - successful or not, that's some dramatic gaming). And from then on, the PCs would watch each other's backs a lot more, which again adds to the drama and fun for everyone, even if another CDG never comes up again.

But, we have a very low mortality rate in our campaigns. However, everyone in the group is still good at fearing tough challenges and realizing they could still be deadly. Despite having only 1 PC death maybe every other campaign, they have never gotten the "Oh, he'll never kill us" attitude which definitely helps. I just love my group!

 

[Destan]

...I am GMing according to "what do I think they'd do now" not "what should they do to win" - those two are often the same, but not always.

Agreed 100%. I just didn't know to word it that well. That's what I attempt to do in a nutshell.

1. As Abraxus asked, could the creatures escape? Or was this a defend-to-the-death scenario?

2. If the goal of the undead was to kill a PC, did they all attack a single enemy?

3. With the paralyzation of one of the opponents, the undead must have though it possible to actually win at that point. Paralyzing the one who was standing over the fallen comrade was certain a logical choice; indeed, the better choice since the undead was at a measly 4hp.

1. This was the final battle near the rear of the crypt. There was no where for the ghoulies to run. The could have tried to overrun the PCs and flee toward the crypt's entrance, but they couldn't escape (again - homebrew, sunlight woulda killed 'em).

2. The undead had split into two groups of three to pincer the PCs. The bottom three tried to overrun a rearguard PC to hit the same PC that ended up dying, but they couldn't make it to him. The front three concetrated on our late hero, for the most part, as he was dealing damage like it was his job. Which it was, I suppose.

3. Well, I thought of that. But we had on-their-feet 4 PCs against two undead at that point, one undead which was badly wounded. Even if they paralyzed one or two PCs, it was still over for them.

I've never seen my DM use the CDG. In some ways, I wish he would. We players don't fear death...

I must admit - I'm terrified of that happening in my group, QD, because I've had that same feeling when I've been a player. For all the folks that say "don't be mean to PCs" I'd counter with "please be mean to my PC". The moment you lose the fear of character death, the moment you lose some of the fun of the game. Again - in my opinion.

Toodles,
D

 

[Mercule]

Nothing wrong with the CDG. NPCs should be played according to their personality. Sometimes that means smart or mean, sometimes dumb or nice.

The problem is not with the NPCs playing for keeps. It's with the DM viewing the players as opponents.

 

[Kid Socrates]

I think you did fine, from what I read. If you're really concerned about it, you could rule that the CDG dropped the PC to -7 or -8 or something, to give a chance for a last-second save from the others, but you didn't do anything wrong. Did they remember that paralysis could be followed up by a CDG? I'd forgotten that (not that my rules-forgetfulness means anything).

I think it all depends on how lethal you want the game to be. A dead character could be the start of a new quest to bring him back, or spur the others on to avenge the cur who controlled the ghouls that killed him.

 

[Len]

I'm pretty sure either of my DMs would have opted to make the undead fight for their "lives" rather than deliver a CdG in this situation. Partly because of the way players hate it when this happens. I think I would have felt a bit hard-done-by in your player's situation, but it depends on the mood of the game and the players' expectations. (Which, judging by your story hour, is a bit different from ours.)

However, the one time my character was killed by a CdG during combat, I thought it was a correct tactic. In that case, an enemy found himself standing near my paralyzed character, with everyone else fighting some distance away (more than a single move away). So he decided to take care of me first.

 

[Raven Crowking]

When I play ghouls, I tend to have them CDG. Ghouls are driven by hunger for flesh. They tend to rip the throats out of the fallen before moving on.

In my online game (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=112911), the players recently fought some skeletal ghouls and one of the PCs was paralyzed. The ghoul that paralyzed him would certainly have CDGed had the other PCs not intervened.

In my tabletop game, the PCs ran into a kobold border patrol in some caves, and the sorcerer used color spray...unfortunately knocking out one of his companions. The Kobold standing next to the barbarian CDGed the barbarian on its next turn. The players were mad at the sorcerer, perhaps shocked at the PC death, but no one tried to argue that kobolds wouldn't target the fallen.

As a DM, you certainly don't want to be trying the kill the PCs. On the other hand, you don't want to be trying not to kill the PCs either. Sometimes villains can use slaves, experimental subjects, or prisoners to ransom. Sometimes fallen PCs are spared because the villians are not truly evil or have a code of conduct. Some villians just like to gloat. Other villians, though -- and certainly anything with a predator/prey relationship to the PCs -- are looking for a meal. And looking for a meal means CDG, not a quick hamstringing.


RC

 

[reapersaurus]

I was the character who died and I think it is what the situation would have warranted from the intelligent creature.

I just don't like the way the rules are on both sides of the spectrum if the prone or helpless individual is being protected by a companion.

Wait a minute.
Your character was being defended, yet the DM allowed a CdG past his protectors?

 

[DonTadow]

I got to agree with you 100 percent. YOu have to play smart characters correctly else you're just coddling players. If it were the run of the mill dumb monsters then of course they wouldn't coup de grace. In order for you to give your players a satisfying game you got to make realistic and satisfying bad guys. Unless the bad guys need the pcs alive for something then its best to kill them. Even my baddest baddies know to kill all but one party member to use as ransom or for experimentation.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

My preference as a DM is to run the game, and the fights, 'for' the players, not against them. As such, I can't envision a foe taking crazy risks for the chance to "get" a PC.

I kinda dislike the dicotomy raised with "heroic vs realistic". So called grim and gritty rpgs are no more realistic in the final analysis than heroic ones. It is no more 'realistic' for a creature in that situation to go out with a bang killing one PC but making its ultimate failure that much more certain than it is for it to start fighting defensively or using other tactics to try to whittle down the active PCs. Its a flavor choice - difficult but survivable, vs fast but deadly to a couple, and I don't see the realism lable as having relevance. Nor is it actually "fighting to win" when it comes down to it. The undead did not win, its burial ground was still looted.

Personally, I've never had a problem thinking my PC couldn't die. I had a problem in a group where I felt the party as a whole could not fail (or suceed outside the narrow plans of the adventure) but that my particular PC might be the one killed for flavor this week. I think of it like catching an episode of Stargate from a prior season. I know none of the major characters are going to die (permanenly ), and that doesn't change my interest at all, but if I already know if that eps bad will get away or not, which allies will survive, then I get a little less into it.

 

[Corsair]

Ironically, I've had monsters run away from the players rather than fight to the death, and this seems to bother the players MORE than just outright killing PCs.