DMs: Fight to Win or Fight for Fun?

[ThirdWizard]

It might be worth noting that when an enemy vampire dominated the PC barbarian with the orders "Kill them!" his fist instict with another downed PC was to CDG because his order was to kill. These are the kind of people I play with.

There are lots of situations where CDG is a good idea. Curative magic mid combat can take a seemingly downed opponent and turn them back into a threat. If you finally just took the tank down, don't move onto another, CDG so that he doesn't get back up. The PCs have been on the other end of this enough times to know themselves, and its the most common. The second most common I've run across is the helpless opponent. When a ghoul paralyzes you, you better bet the next thing they're going to try is a CDG in normal circumstances. A held opponent is also CDG fodder.

It's not unfair. It's a good tactic. Noting wrong with the CDG. Might as well complain about NPCs casting disintegrate.

 

[Kelleris]

Of course you have to tailor your DMing style to your players, and if they like CDGs being common then that's what you should give to them. I'm just saying that simply because I'll always pick an equally-appropriate tactic over the one that leaves a dead player character doesn't mean my games are easy or risk-free. I'll even monkey around with the plot back where the players can't discover it to make sure their risk is rankes such that death is close to last, but I've still had players quite my game because it was too difficult (not bragging, that was a failure on my part, just illustrating that players can still feel persecuted, "us vs. DM"-like even if they never get killed).

It's also worth noting that my players hardly ever take the time and the risk to do a CDG in my games, partly because they can usually find more productive things to do with a full-round action and partly because I house-rule healing into a process that converts lethal damage to nonlethal damage and then cures double nonlethal damage 1 minute later.

And you'll note that one of the things changed in the revision was altering disintegrate into a non-instant-kill. Does usually put people on the ground, though.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

I think you did the right thing. If I was you, I'd have done the same things. IMO, an adventure isn't exciting unless someone dies. I like to keep the threat as real as possible for the characters.

 

[Agamon]

Maybe it's because I just finished watching the 4th season of 24, but I think I'd have handled it a bit differently...

If the PC is helpless, and the undead thinks he's doomed, use the PC as a hostage. Weapon to the throat, and a "Drop your weapons, or your buddy is dead!" If they back off, he can drag the paralysed PC back with him until he's able to escape. If they don't, CDG time. See, this way, you don't get blamed, as the party was given a choice.

 

[Destan]

This thread brought to light two things I wish I would have done:

1) Made it more apparent to the other PCs that Mr. Ghoul intended to go for a CDG on his next turn. This is excellent advice, and I blew it.

2) Just Rule 0'd the fact that though the RAW allow CDG against helpless opponents, even if the opponent is being straddled by an ally, I should have disallowed it. Wish I would have done that, and my PCs even suggested that to me. Again, I blew that one.

What I did correctly - in my mind, after much thought - is have Mr. Ghoul go for a CDG. Having a ghoul grab a hostage and say, "Back off, or this one dies!" is ludicrous to me. In my campaign, a ghoul doesn't act like that. This is a ghoul, not an orc. Maybe that doesn't make a difference in some campaigns. I dunno.

I also hope people realize my tongue was planted firmly in cheek when I said I take my kids to DQ whenver I kill a PC. I'm not, despite all the rumors, a Deadly DM. The characters in this campaign are 5th level, but would be 10th level if we used the core rules' XP advancement system. This is the first PC death. I don't consider that a "deadly" or "anti-PC" campaign.

Thanks for the input, from both sides of the aisle.

D


Edit: Agamon, because you posted while I was writing this, it looks like my anti-ghoul hostage taker was directed at your post. It wasn't. You're not the first in this thread to suggest that. No offense meant.

 

[Agamon]

My INT 13 varmint would have grabbed the paralyzed foe and setup a CDG. he would have then offered to spare the life of the helpless victim in exchange for getting away. Its a hostage situation. Do the heroes want to let the bad guy go, keep their friend alive and still take the temple, or do thewy want to risk seeing their friend die in order to kill the last or last two varmints?

Whoops, didn't read the whole thread. So just change the previous post to, "Me too!"

 

[Christoph the Magus]

I read your initial post, but no all of the replies-so I apologize if I repeat anything.

What were the other players doing while undead guy was spending a full round to CDG their buddy? Did they gang up on the other remaining bad guy? In my games, if something bad is happening (like a CDG, or someone is on the verge of bleeding out) I make sure that everyone knows that if something is not done before the characters next action, he's toast. It usually makes for a very dramatic round-even if the players can't save the character in question. My advice-always make it clear that something bad is about to happen and then let the dice roll how they may.

 

[Agamon]

What I did correctly - in my mind, after much thought - is have Mr. Ghoul go for a CDG. Having a ghoul grab a hostage and say, "Back off, or this one dies!" is ludicrous to me. In my campaign, a ghoul doesn't act like that. This is a ghoul, not an orc. Maybe that doesn't make a difference in some campaigns. I dunno.

No prob, just noticed this myself.

IMO, or I guess, IMC, ghouls do act like that. They want to survive as much as any living creature. Otherwise, they'd go running through town, killing as many people as they can before someone finally offs them.

I actually don't think you did it wrong, per se. I just would have found a way to not make it look so blatant. But then, we may be coming from different veiwpoints, too. You said killing a PC is cause for celebration, I'm getting to the point where I openly weep when a PC dies. I don't need to CDG my PCs, the ToAC in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil has provided an already huge mass grave of dead PCs. 4 PCs died last session, in fact...

 

[Agamon]

I also hope people realize my tongue was planted firmly in cheek when I said I take my kids to DQ whenver I kill a PC. I'm not, despite all the rumors, a Deadly DM. The characters in this campaign are 5th level, but would be 10th level if we used the core rules' XP advancement system. This is the first PC death. I don't consider that a "deadly" or "anti-PC" campaign.

Sounds like my homebrew. Last campaign saw 3 PC deaths over 3 years, at which pioint the highest level PC was 9th. My players are chomping at the bit to get back to that; making new PCs for RttToEE over and over is getting tiresome, by the sounds of things...

 

[Agamon]

Wow, I'd say roughly 1/4 of humanoid enemies attempt an escape in my game. Most of them don't make it, mind you, as the PCs have learned to deal with it. By the way, this still hasn't taught the PCs to run away when it is in their best interest. Even when they know someone is going to die if they fight. Usually the barbarian, heh.

Excatly. Run away, or if that isn't possible, surrender (though undead are unlikelt to surrender, knowing that they'll just be destroyed anyway). Nothing with intelligence that isn't insane or wholely devoted to some cause (read: insane) is going to fight to the death, if it can be helped. Even dumb animals will often run at the first sign of the ability of the victim to defend itself.

I always try to look at it through the NPC's or monster's eyes. Will they fight to the death, and if so, why? Do they even want to fight, escpecially if they're outmatched? Maybe there's someone down the hall that can help them take the intruders out? Do they have something to offer the PCs in exchange for release if they surrender?

In my homebrew, the bad guys got away so often, it was driving one of my players crazy. "Why won't they stay and die?" "Did you actually hear what you just said??"