DMs: Fight to Win or Fight for Fun?

[Jolly Giant]

Your undead knew he was fighting a lost battle. He saw the chance to take at least one enemy with him, and he took it. Makes sense to me!

 

[I'm A Banana]

ust Rule 0'd the fact that though the RAW allow CDG against helpless opponents, even if the opponent is being straddled by an ally, I should have disallowed it. Wish I would have done that, and my PCs even suggested that to me. Again, I blew that one.

This seems a bit off...

By the RAW, a coup takes a full-round action and provokes an AoO. A desparate critter may have attempted it, but if the helpless character has another character right on top of him, that means that this 4 hp thing would have likely been killed by the AoO.

Plus, I probably would've Rule 0'd that a helpless creature who is being actively defended can't be CDG'd, but to defend the creature takes the defender's action.

 

[LostSoul]

2) Just Rule 0'd the fact that though the RAW allow CDG against helpless opponents, even if the opponent is being straddled by an ally, I should have disallowed it. Wish I would have done that, and my PCs even suggested that to me. Again, I blew that one.

I would have taken a cue from the AoO drawn from a Grapple attempt and said, "If you hit him with your AoO, it will foil his Coup de Grace attempt." That seems like a fair balance for someone guarding a fallen PC from the fallen PC's space.

 

[swrushing]

What I did correctly - in my mind, after much thought - is have Mr. Ghoul go for a CDG. Having a ghoul grab a hostage and say, "Back off, or this one dies!" is ludicrous to me. In my campaign, a ghoul doesn't act like that. This is a ghoul, not an orc. Maybe that doesn't make a difference in some campaigns. I dunno.

IMC there is a difference between orcs and ghouls. Ghouls have 13 int and 14 wis or somsuch (MM stats) and orcs are 8's or 7s... average specimens each.

This means i tend to play my ghouls smarter than my orcs and they come off as more dangerous foes not just because of their undead nature.

So, while even some orcs would think of trying a hostage gambit rather than "die fighting", ghouls being smarter would be even more likely to look for other options than "go down but take one with me.

Now, one aspect of this might have been designed in even before the scenariobegan, in that ghouls IMC tend to, like most intelligent creatures, not trap themselves and choose lairs with exit possibilities, and if possible ones with possibilities they can take advantage of.

Why is it ludicrous in your game for int 13 wis 14 adversaries to try and survive rather than go down so willingly? Are these religious fanatic ghouls, part of some undead cult maybe, who prefer to die fighting rather than live? I am curious as to why its not just unlikely but even ludicrous in your game?

 

[ThirdWizard]

And you'll note that one of the things changed in the revision was altering disintegrate into a non-instant-kill. Does usually put people on the ground, though.

It kills about as often as CDG, in my experience. Just two sessions ago, the PCs had to try three CDGs on an enemy before killing him. I was doing all I could to keep from falling down laughing. Wizard trys CDG and horribly fails. Favored Soul tries CDG and he makes the saving throw. Monk tries CDG and finally fells him.

I would have taken a cue from the AoO drawn from a Grapple attempt and said, "If you hit him with your AoO, it will foil his Coup de Grace attempt."

AFAIK, that's not an uncommon house rule, and a fairly good one in my book. I don't use it, but I would if my players wanted to.

Re: Ghouls. IMC it all depends on how hungry they are. If these are fairly well fed ghouls, then they'll be coniving, evil, and devious. If they're starving, then they'll pursue food until sated, taking bites out of paralyzed enemies even if it isn't tactically advisable. After a CDG (they've gulped down some flesh) they might realize they need to fight off the others or they might just keep eating! Usually ghouls are in packs, so this isn't as suicidal as you might think. That's how I do it at least.

 

[frankthedm]

And you'll note that one of the things changed in the revision was altering disintegrate into a non-instant-kill. Does usually put people on the ground, though.

On the ground? I hope you mean falling prone for +4 to AC Vs. ranged attacks, because if Disintegrate sends them to 0 or lower HP [into the negatives] thet are dusted.

Disintegrate
Transmutation
Level: Destruction 7, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes

A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10- foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.

A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage. If this damage reduces the creature or object to 0 or fewer hit points, it is entirely disintegrated.

Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting.
Arcane Material Component

A lodestone and a pinch of dust.

Ghouls should always CDG foes unless they need to run there and then. They know thier paralasis won't last long. and a nice chomp of neck flesh is always tasty.

And if a player feel CDG is too easy or should be interuptable, they should have said something when the campaign first started, rather than to wait it until THEY were being affected. If the concern is legitimate, the matter can be discussed after the death is resolved. If they complain simply remind them of when their characters delayed In hopes of CDGing the guy the cleric was going to cast hold person on.

 

[MonsterMash]

I don't see anything wrong with the CDG, it makes sense in context.

 

[Bront]

I'm okay with a CDG on a PC. I've done it. I just don't think it's warranted in this case. The disadvantages far outweigh the benefits.

1. As Abraxus asked, could the creatures escape? Or was this a defend-to-the-death scenario?

2. If the goal of the undead was to kill a PC, did they all attack a single enemy?

3. With the paralyzation of one of the opponents, the undead must have though it possible to actually win at that point. Paralyzing the one who was standing over the fallen comrade was certain a logical choice; indeed, the better choice since the undead was at a measly 4hp.

Reverse the situation, consider the PC's in that case. Would one of the PC's risk certain death with an AoO merely to make sure he killed one of the enemy or would he try to win or even escape?

Like I said before, was it fun? I try to go out of my way to not kill PCs. I have no fear of killing PCs, don't get me wrong, but in a situation like this I would not have CDG'd the PC. Now, Pielorhino's scenario sounds like a lot of fun. That's something that you explicitly plan out, though, and moreover the zombies are brainless. Hmm, I might try that ....

I agree with you on this. Unless the goal of the undead was to "bring down as many as you could with you" initialy, they would have likely tried some action in order to survive, not kill the PC. I would have had no problem with it if killing the PCs was the objective (Which it could easily be with a creature who is capable of paralyzing attacks).

Now, granted, this is from a GM that killed his first PC at Gencon this year (My 14th Gen Con, to give you perspective), and strangely he didn't stay dead in a system where he's designed too (It was his fault he died though, through a combination of extreme bravery and some stupidity/expectations of invulnerability, as well as a lucky hit). However, don't take it that I'm not afraid to bring the PCs close to death. I've had numerous near death scenarios, including one in a PbP where I had to alter a players actions in order to save his comrade (the PC didn't mind after I did it, so it wasn't an issue, one of the idiosincracies of PbP).

 

[Destan]

Why is it ludicrous in your game for int 13 wis 14 adversaries to try and survive rather than go down so willingly? Are these religious fanatic ghouls, part of some undead cult maybe, who prefer to die fighting rather than live? I am curious as to why its not just unlikely but even ludicrous in your game?

Well, they (ghouls) go beyond stats. An Int 13 ghoul and an Int 13 necromancer just aren't the same IMC. A ghoul wants to eat flesh, rend its enemies, and generally let the world know their none to pleased with being damned to an eternity of undeath. A necromancer would want to get out of Dodge and would do everything possible to help him escape - take a hostage, run away, magcially depart, etc. Completely different animals.

I think this has run its course. Your ghouls would take hostages in this situation, mine wouldn't. Fair enough.

And this is true, too:

Re: Ghouls. IMC it all depends on how hungry they are. If these are fairly well fed ghouls, then they'll be coniving, evil, and devious. If they're starving, then they'll pursue food until sated, taking bites out of paralyzed enemies even if it isn't tactically advisable. After a CDG (they've gulped down some flesh) they might realize they need to fight off the others or they might just keep eating! Usually ghouls are in packs, so this isn't as suicidal as you might think. That's how I do it at least.

Later,
D

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

Well, they (ghouls) go beyond stats. An Int 13 ghoul and an Int 13 necromancer just aren't the same IMC. A ghoul wants to eat flesh, rend its enemies, and generally let the world know their none to pleased with being damned to an eternity of undeath. A necromancer would want to get out of Dodge and would do everything possible to help him escape - take a hostage, run away, magcially depart, etc. Completely different animals.

Well, for me, it really dpeends more on the "individuals" per se and their own personality and goals. But regardless, it takes a very unusual sort to not be inclined to try and survive.

I think this has run its course. Your ghouls would take hostages in this situation, mine wouldn't. Fair enough.

very true.

Now, the question becomes some form of "did the players or their characters have any way of knowing that ghouls in your worlds react this differently from other "significantly above average intelligent creatures?" That ghouls typically place getting one more kill over their own survival?

usually, when i run game and want to introduce a "this guy won't be making normal rational reactions even though you know he is a smart fellow", i tend to show it before it becomes a PC action thing, especially if its not something the players/characters will get from their normally known material, like say the MM. often this is done either by NPC stories or PC observation of the aftermath of NPC events or even by the tried and true "redshirt technique" where the PCs actually see an engagement where an NPC ally gets to befall the "fanatical" behavior.

This is a technique i have found very helpful to let my players know "the rules are different here. Don't expect this but be worried about that..." etc so that if they do happen to befall the fate, they at least have a forewarning of the threat.

In the case here, had they had such a scene prior to this, where they saw a ghoul choose to suicidally ""take one down with me" instead of other more rational actions one might expect from an Int 13 foe who wanted to live, my bet is as soon as one guy gets paralyzed it would become PRIORITY ONE for everyone to try and eliminate the ghoul at CDG range.

That not only IMO a good Gming thing but a great scene. I have seen it play out with all sorts of wild desperate "try to save him" gambles as everyone's attention turns from "beat the guy closest" to a very dramatic and tense "can we save billy." I have seen fighters drop their swords and grapple the CDG capable guy, seen clerics rush away from their foes and take AoOs to rush across the room and lay a cure on the guy at negative hit points so he isn't helpless, and so forth when they thought it was one-round-or-he-dies.

But, again, this will often come about AFTER a previous scene or event in the current scene has shown them the above average risk.

i have found players take "harsh life or death" lessons better when its not their character that is the first such "example" on point for "today's new lesson."

Maybe that will be of help to you. maybe not.

Enjoy.