D&D General DM's: How transparent are you with game mechanics "in world?"

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Tangentially...

I'm reading the "Songs of Valor" anthology (fantasy stories) that just came out, and one of the stories is the most D&D thing I've read in a short story, in spite of using slightly different names for some things. Having the character sense the equivalent of spell slots and be told they leveled up when they felt more of them... seemed really odd. I wonder if it only felt that way because it seemed D&D and I'd have been fine with it if I never played. I'm now trying to imagine a story where the people in world know they have hit points, and I can't see it pulled off well.
 

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I disagree that the design of the game must include the potential for the DM to abuse ultimate power. Again, I don't see what we need all this power for anyways. Lyxen has gone forward saying that the DM can make a rule that allows them to use weighted dice. Why is that a thing we are going to say the rules allow them to do?

In no other game, in no other context, do we give people this much unbridled authority. There are RPGs I've planned, and forums I've visited where these sort of claims would get you laughed out of the conversation, yet I have two people making them here.

There is always a potential for abuse of power. A "rule to use loaded dice" is a bit silly, but sure a DM can do it....but even more so a DM can "make a rule" or "do an action in the game" with NO dice roll. The DM has complete control over the game reality: what they say happens. And without "loaded dice" a DM can still make any roll they want to on a whim simply by adding or subtracting to make or fail any roll. A foe might "suddenly" have a bonus from abilities, skills, powers, spells, magic items and more to get a +10 to a roll and make it "sure to happen".

It is true RPG's are unique.

Changing our perspective on what it means to be a DM. Stop calling them "Masters", stop treating them like they are smarter, wiser, more creative and all the rest than the players. Acknowledge that the game involves multiple parties, and multiple voices, and all of them should be heard and considered.

Consider that instead of the rules being seen as a limit on the creativity of the DM, to be discarded at a whim, if we instead viewed them as very solid guidelines for how to approach situations, and that you shouldn't discard them without a very good reason and careful consideration. Perhaps even a discussion with your players.

No rules are changed, and yet, making this a standard approach in the community may do a lot. Along with us stopping treating any player with an opinion as a problem.

In order to have even an average game you must have a DM that is smart, wise and creative. And yes, 99% of the time they are smarter, wiser, more creative and all the rest than the players. That IS why they ARE the DM in the first place.

Most of the DMs power comes from "beyond" the rules. If the DM has an NPC dwarf that needs to cut down a tree, that dwarf can "suddenly" have an Mighty Axe of Tree Falling. A DM can do that. A player can not do that.




How will he improve? No one can tell him what he is doing is wrong, the rules support what he is doing. Players who complain are just, to borrow a phrase from Lyxen "entitled little ****." or if they are asking questions then they are distrusting their DM, and that's bad, or hounding them to death, or just a powergamer seeking any advantage, or or or or.

We have dozens of ways to label bad players, that excuse a DM from all wrong doing, so how is a DM supposed to learn and improve? If they come to these forums and ask why their players are unhappy, while explaining their intentions (not necessarily their results) they are likely to be told that their players are ungrateful for all the hard work, and that they've done nothing wrong. That the players are wrong for questioning them.

And, since I believe that a Bad DM can improve, I have no problem saying that in a specific game, a DM was a Bad DM. It could also be that you are using the term more narrowly, since you seem to think that intentional vindictiveness is needed to be a Bad DM.

Why can't a player tell a DM when they are bad? Trust me that they do.

 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
@Lanefan , wow. That is a long campaign and congratulations for that.
Thanks! :)

Current campaign/setting began in March 2008. Still going and just crossed 900 sessions overall, though covid's knocked it for a loop this last year-and-a-half.
Personnaly I prefer shorter campaigns along the year or year and a half. This allows us to try new rules and new options. Our goal is the same though. We do not want people to create new characters with options that were not available to the original characters.
I'd probably do shorter campaigns if creating the (homebrew, and somewhat detailed) setting wasn't so much bloody work. :)

I generally don't like re-using settings unless I'm starting with a group of players who've never seen that setting before, as I want the players to be able to explore it as something new.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
New names for Dungeon Master
Dungeon Guru
Rules Guru
Game producer
Game director
The B**** who we led play the monsters
Dungeon Dude
Dude
The wimp we bully when the game does not go our way.
Person to be Wedgie
They who should not be obeyed.
The Person we really need.
Or, as once self-described by a DM who I still know: "The Jackass Who Runs These Dungeons".
 


Chaosmancer

Legend
No it's not. Those kinds of DMs will break the rules and change things anyway. The abuses will be about the same with the same result. Lost players.

Except that it doesn't. The number of abusers doesn't change, because the vast majority of us aren't douches and aren't going to abuse the game regardless, and the few that are will do it regardless of any limitations.

You can't redesign RPGs for that, either.

Bad DMs will still use weighted dice(modifying that saw so it cuts flesh anyway). Non-bad DMs would never have used weighted dice in the first place, so you're attempting to fix a problem that isn't fixable, nor even really much of a problem. Just leave the game and have fun with someone else.

Nope. It's impossible to redesign the game in that manner. Even if you put into the rules that the players can outvote the DM, a bad DM will just ignore that rule and push on. The only real recourse for a bad DM is leaving the game and getting another DM.

You just keep repeating yourself, with no explanation of why I am wrong except that the worst of the worst will never change. I'm not talking about the worst of the worst. I'm not talking about the guy who gleefully giggles as he shreds your character sheet in front of you. You're right, that guy will never change. But how did he get that way and can we do anything to change that path and stop him from getting to that point?

You seem to take the approach that that individual is just fundamentally broken and nothing caused it. I disagree. And I think your response to the idea of setting up a vote for a homebrew rule really highlights the issue that you are ignoring. You see, if the DM ignores the vote and does it anyways... the game doesn't continue. It is the same effect practically, the game ends and the players move on, but there is a difference. Because it is more likely that ALL the players leave, at once. Because the players have exercised their right to have their voices heard, and the DM ignored them. It became very stark. Whereas in the current set-up, many people would argue that the player's don't have the right to question the DM, to question their rulings. So each individual player has to decide when the flags have been raised and it is time to bail, which potentially they won't, because they may have another player they don't want to abandon to a bad DM.

Group dynamics are important, and there is an issue in setting up a group where one person is an unquestioned leader, and leaving it to individuals to decide when they don't like the leader and leave, without giving the group a space to make decisions.

Again, just like I have a dozen times. I'm not naive enough to think that changes will remove all abuses from all games for all time. But they can put us in a place that is better than we are, and maybe prevent future abuses by not setting up a power dynamic that is fundamentally untenable. No one actually exercises the full authority of the DM, because we don't need it. We don't need unlimited power to run the game. So why do we have it? You have never once made an argument that the ultimate power of the DM is a good thing, you have only claimed it is a thing. And I think it is because you realize that all of the good a DM can do is in a very small portion of that power.

I've had bad GM experiences with both Vampire the Masquerade and Exalted. This is not a D&D specific thing and I sincerely doubt it happens in any lower percentage of games with other game systems. You just hear less about it, because far fewer people play those systems.

Possibly, but I also have never once heard people in those systems praise the Storyteller or the GM position as one of unfettered power with the ability to do anything. That seems uniquely DnD. And I question why, because it doesn't actually serve a purpose.

I have actually played and own games where the idea of changing the characters mid-scene is seen as horrible. Where the role is "Chief Editor" (it is a comic book conceit) and the expectation is very much that by the time the players are in the scene, it is relatively locked. You shouldn't rewrite the abilities of the boss on the fly. You can't really alter much else than the boss, or fudge anything, simply because of how the various pieces work.

The game runs great. It is immensely fun, immensely creative, and easily 75% of the power is vested in the players. IT even recommends that when a narrative consequence happens in the story, that the player of that character is the one who offers what that consequence is. And the creators of the game, who have run it at cons for hundreds of players for years now (I think 4 years, multiple cons worldwide, running demos every day) have reported that often the players give themselves more debilitating consequences than the Editor would have.

So, it can be done. Without ruining the game. So why not?

Utterly wrong, but understanding me(and others from what I can see) isn't your strong suit.

Maybe you're new here, but I've been present on this site for years and you will be told(in some manner) that you did something wrong with just about any position you take.

And praised by people for the same position. And who do you listen to more closely, the people who tell you you are wrong and terrible, or the people who tell you that you are completely right and those other people are just trouble makers?

Wrong again! I never said that you implied that he was a liar. I said straight out that you did what I did, which was accuse him of being mistaken. That's it.


He has accused you of saying he was a liar. I don't agree with that. You just called him mistaken about things he experienced with his life and you did not.

And you were wrong. I accused MYSELF of POTENTIALLY being mistaken. Because I didn't experience his life.

I've said it three times now, but I'm sure you don't believe me, because I obviously have no idea what I said or what I intended. You clearly understand my intents better than I do, which is hilariously the same faux pas you keep accusing me of
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Not here to discuss what someone might have said somewhere sometime. That said, perhaps I should have expressed my point as: "Virtually no one is treating...". Never say never (or always) and all that.

Which is a better way of going about it, but we all slip up. I know for ease of typing quickly I've often overstated a point.

You mean like the spirit of the text on page 4 of the DMG?

The D&D rules help you and the other players have a good time, but the rules aren't in charge. You're the DM, and you are in charge of the game. That said, your goal isn't to slaughter the adventurers but to create a campaign world that revolves around their actions and decisions, and to keep your players coming back for more! If you're lucky, the events of your campaign will echo in the memories of your players long after the final game session is concluded.

In the spirit of? Maybe. But I think that language ends up flowery and vague, which makes it harder for people to turn that into something to empower the player's voices. I know a lot of people are worried about tyrannical players bullying their DMs, but I think people like Max and Lyxen have swung too far the other way. I think we need more balance instead of a an all-powerful DM.

Apparently that paragraph in the DMG wasn't enough for the abusive DMs you've encountered. How much more do you believe would suffice to curb the abuses that you seem to believe are inevitable? Do some of the rules need caveats to help prevent bad-faith gaming? Do most of them? Do they all?

I think trying to alter the culture of the game community (which is a nigh impossible task) would go a long way.

I think the major problem with that paragraph is that the players are passive. The DM decides is the game world is slaughtering the adventures or revolving around their decisions. And I go back the DM who cursed my character. I flat out told the guy that, as a player, I felt that I had no options. That this was a massive escalation from what I expected, and that I was not enjoying the situation. He was adamant that this was the consequences of my own decisions and that he was being merciful in not having my character killed.

The decision that ended up with me being turned into an undead with a soul destroying curse? Putting out a book burning fire, as a scholar born with fire powers and with a history involving book burning.


And I think this highlights another facet. The DMs I've seen who are the worst give false choices. "You can do what I want, or walk. That is your decision." "you can follow the path, or your character can die. You have a choice, so it isn't railroading". But all the power to decide this is vested in the DM. Read that paragraph again, can you find anything in it that credits the players for the memorable campaign? Anything that gives them any say over what happens? I can't. The part you highlighted is about the DM choosing to make the world react to their choices. Meaning the DM could just as easily choose not to do it, and the players have no recourse.

The game seems to promote this idea that various posters have espoused, albiet subtly, that the good comes from the DM, and the bad from the players. And changing that isn't about putting in a caveat on a specific rule, but from out-right saying "DMs if you are changing things, we recommend an open discourse with your players. Get them involved in making the game better, it is their story as much as it is yours."
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Fwiw, Tasha's has a whole section about this, both house-rules and social contract. That's not technically "core", to be sure, but those ideas made it into Tasha's precisely because they're mainstream and in demand. And it's not uncommon for tables (including all of AL, if I understand correctly) to incorporate all WotC pubs by default. Heck, it's even codified in a popular meme, Wheaton's Law:

So yeah... All this stuff that addresses your concerns is already out there. "Officially" even! If a DM (or player) is being a jerk, they're doing it contrary to widely regarded RAW, as well as social convention.


* Quack!

I wasn't aware of this. I own Tasha's but at most I have skimmed it.

I will say though, putting it in a book released 6 years after the DMG isn't exactly great. It hasn't even been out a year yet, and if the advice in it is as good as you say, then it should be moved the DMG and released in the core, not in a book many DMs ban because the only thing in it anyone talks about are the options that increase player power and the DMs don't want that power creep.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Tangentially...

I'm reading the "Songs of Valor" anthology (fantasy stories) that just came out, and one of the stories is the most D&D thing I've read in a short story, in spite of using slightly different names for some things. Having the character sense the equivalent of spell slots and be told they leveled up when they felt more of them... seemed really odd. I wonder if it only felt that way because it seemed D&D and I'd have been fine with it if I never played. I'm now trying to imagine a story where the people in world know they have hit points, and I can't see it pulled off well.

There is an entire genre referred to as LitRPG that does exactly that. Many of the stories in it are pulled off incredibly well IMO. I can give you a rather extensive bit of recommended reading if you are interested. Many of them pull from MMOs more than DnD, but quite a few do the same things.

Actually, one author I just finished with, Andrew Sieple, has had characters actually use the refreshing of energy bars from leveling up (but specifically not hit points) as a tactic in the world, and the reason some of his characters have been able to pull off stunts, because they keep using high cost abilities, leveling up because the situation is incredibly dangerous, and then refreshing the cost to use the ability again.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
There is always a potential for abuse of power. A "rule to use loaded dice" is a bit silly, but sure a DM can do it....but even more so a DM can "make a rule" or "do an action in the game" with NO dice roll. The DM has complete control over the game reality: what they say happens. And without "loaded dice" a DM can still make any roll they want to on a whim simply by adding or subtracting to make or fail any roll. A foe might "suddenly" have a bonus from abilities, skills, powers, spells, magic items and more to get a +10 to a roll and make it "sure to happen".

It is true RPG's are unique.

I know there is always a potential. But can we not reframe things to reduce the potential for abuse? I think we can.

In order to have even an average game you must have a DM that is smart, wise and creative. And yes, 99% of the time they are smarter, wiser, more creative and all the rest than the players. That IS why they ARE the DM in the first place.

Most of the DMs power comes from "beyond" the rules. If the DM has an NPC dwarf that needs to cut down a tree, that dwarf can "suddenly" have an Mighty Axe of Tree Falling. A DM can do that. A player can not do that.

They are the DM in the first place because they want to run a game. I fully, 100%, and utterly reject the idea that they are even 50% of the time smarter or wiser or more creative than their players. This sort of attitude is exactly why people with low self-esteem constantly tell me that they can't run a game as a DM, even though they want to, because they aren't smart enough or creative enough. Utter BS.

Anyone can run a game. Anyone can do it well. It doesn't take anything special to be a DM. Just the courage to sit down behind the screen. The hard part is dealing with the group, and I think it is a mistake that DnD has set it up where the DM is not only running the game, but has also become the leader of the group, dealing with issues and scheduling and all of that. None of that is actually part of being a DM, but it gets put upon them, because we have crafted this idea that players just show up, play, then leave, with no responsibilities to the group itself.

Why can't a player tell a DM when they are bad? Trust me that they do.

They might, they might not. Social dynamics aren't so simple.
 

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