DMs only: Stop me from killing off all my players
- Thread starter italianranma
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Kahuna Burger
First Post
Mallus said:
obviously I disagree. *shrug* An average good party has been helping people. They have people who are greatful to them, who would stick their necks out to help their former saviors and feel good about doing it. (unless we're talking about a midnight campaign or something, but thats a whole other kettle of swimmy thingies.) They may have actual allies, not just former allies of conveinience. When they are in trouble, it is reasonable and good story to have those they helped help them now. An average evil party has been screwing people over. They have people they used to work for and people they cooperated with. Its possible there are some folks who would "help" them because they can use them for something, but its unlikely anyone will stick their neck out for a bunch of bastards, and the pool of rescuers becomes a possible buyer for them as slaves.
As I said before, my impression is that the majority of gamers who want to play evil alligned parties or characters believe it to be a more 'effective' or strategic way of doing things. Bragging about just using torture to get the info they need and mocking their ineffectual good party members springs to mind as an example I've seen on these boards. While this may sometimes be true, there are drawbacks to trying to work outside the functional norm of empathy and ethics. One is that when you are the helpless one, people either don't know you personally and are going to be loath to risk anything for you, or do know you personally and will say "good job of it, too..."
My suggestion was that for a good party I would have specific former benificiaries of their good works come to help them. It is not just as likely that an evil party would have the same pool to draw on. So why give them all the freedom of action and lack of dillemas they wanted from being an evil party and also give them the fringe benifits of good deeds they didn't do? It would be like having a party of Ronin types in a very lawful and structured campaign setting, yet having npc nobles give them the same respect and aid they would another lord's bonded men. They wanted the freedom, they gave up the safety net. Thats how I'd do it.
Kahuna Burger
Well, I have a unique system; perhaps others use it too.
I spec out an adventure that happens whenever the entire party is killed, no matter when it occurs during the campaign. (My campaigns are quite lethal since one of my requirements is a strict adherence to the rules, and a second requirement is that "Giants and Dragons do happen to exist when you're first level. Stay away from 'em or die.")
So I usually work out a good adventure that occurs on the event of TPW (total party wipeout). The best ones are "damned souls" adventures that take the party through a Planescape setting on a quest for redemption. The story line is simple -- the player characters' souls were damned for their prior deeds, but something went wrong in the process, and they have one last chance as incarnate spirits (just treat 'em as regular PCs unless they return to the Prime) to redeem themselves and attempt to return to life.
cheers,
Carpe
I spec out an adventure that happens whenever the entire party is killed, no matter when it occurs during the campaign. (My campaigns are quite lethal since one of my requirements is a strict adherence to the rules, and a second requirement is that "Giants and Dragons do happen to exist when you're first level. Stay away from 'em or die.")
So I usually work out a good adventure that occurs on the event of TPW (total party wipeout). The best ones are "damned souls" adventures that take the party through a Planescape setting on a quest for redemption. The story line is simple -- the player characters' souls were damned for their prior deeds, but something went wrong in the process, and they have one last chance as incarnate spirits (just treat 'em as regular PCs unless they return to the Prime) to redeem themselves and attempt to return to life.
cheers,
Carpe
Then we agree. And likelihood of an evil party having some manner of benefactor is entirely up to DM.Kahuna Burger said:
I'd argue that 1) such a scenario is no less likely than having a group of scrub PC's be fated fulfill an ancient prophesy and save the world; its merely a different kind of far-fetched story, a different style of play. Wild coincidence is a staple of fantasy, heroic or otherwise,
2) The DM agreed to run an evil group, so there's some onus on him to indulge his players, at least as far as he would a good aligned group. Maybe the PC's are too reckless to survive, but the DM aught to provide them with a fair number of second chances, regardless of their alignment [alignment should effect who pulls their a**es from the fire, not whether it happens], otherwise the whole game is a bit of the old bait-and-switch, with the DM agreeing to an evil party, but really its just a 'lesson' campaign designed to demonstrate how 'evil never wins'.
Well, if you've already given them clues, I don't really think you can stop them. That being said, my PCs have surprised me on more than one occassion with cleverness, luck, and good tactics in battles where I figured they were going to die for sure. Let 'em run the way they want. If they all die, they die. Others have already suggested capturing them and all the fun that can entail. But you can't stop them from their own madness.
A smart Thayan seldom wastes resources. Why destroy a useful set of tools, when you could instead turn them to your own purposes?
Assuming he knows the PCs are coming, I'd have him prepare to incapacitate rather than kill them. Prepare spells like hold person. Equip the minions with nets and saps, or instruct them to grapple en masse. Use poison or magic to reduce their ability scores to 0. (Scorpion venom works very well on low-Str wizards.)
Once the PCs are all incapacitated, the BBEG can slap them all with lesser geas, forcing them to go and assassinate some Thayan rival of his. If they succeed, he comes out ahead. If they're killed or captured in the attempt, he doesn't even care, because they weren't his people anyway.
Of course, if the nonlethal methods don't seem to work immediately, the BBEG should be prepared to kill off the one or two most dangerous PCs. He can dump the bodies out the side door with their geased friends.
Assuming he knows the PCs are coming, I'd have him prepare to incapacitate rather than kill them. Prepare spells like hold person. Equip the minions with nets and saps, or instruct them to grapple en masse. Use poison or magic to reduce their ability scores to 0. (Scorpion venom works very well on low-Str wizards.)
Once the PCs are all incapacitated, the BBEG can slap them all with lesser geas, forcing them to go and assassinate some Thayan rival of his. If they succeed, he comes out ahead. If they're killed or captured in the attempt, he doesn't even care, because they weren't his people anyway.
Of course, if the nonlethal methods don't seem to work immediately, the BBEG should be prepared to kill off the one or two most dangerous PCs. He can dump the bodies out the side door with their geased friends.
silentspace
First Post
I say give em another hint. Then kill em
Preferably a BIG one. A big an OBVIOUS one. Hints are often lost on the best of players. Especially on ones who seem to be so well an truly stuck in a rut as these guys are.silentspace said:
I'm assuming the necro if 7th level, and the PC's 4th. The necro can only control up to 4HD worth of undead per caster level at a time, but there's no reason he can't *create* more than that and "store" them somewhere for his future "take over the world with an army of undead" plans. What if the PC's stumble into his "storage area"?
Let's see... Minotaur Zombie is 12 HD, CR 4. An appropriate challenge for a 4th level party... so let's say they somehow happen to release SIX of these puppies (or any N>4). They're relatively slow, so the party can easily outrun them and take them out one-by-one later. But try to take them head-on and it's PC pulp! (Make sure to set it up in an environment where they can't just nuke them from a safe distance, such as in a forest or a dungeon with limited line-of-sight.)
If you want to be nice, let's say that the minotaur's axes are stored in a different room. That gives the party a few rounds to realize how tough these guys are. They'll still do 1d8+5 at a 10' reach with their gore or slam attacks, but once they reach their axes that turns into 3d6+7 - more than enough to take out a less sturdy 4th level character with a single blow.
Parlan
First Post
I have to agree with Kahuna Burger: that s the price of poker.
As I see it, why would the PC s benefactor BOTHER saving them? Maybe the benefactor sees them as useful tools or something, but stupid minions ain t useful, they re just failures. Does No. 1 ever save No. 2 in a Bond movie? No! Would No. 1 plan out some elaborate rescue scheme to save No. 2? No! No. 2 screwed up, so No. 1 says This organization does not tolerate failure!!! And lets him die.
It s not just a question of teaching the players a morality lesson either. Evil party games tend to be dark. As a player in one, I wouldn t expect a happy ending, and if the BBEG all of a sudden starts dishing out subdual damage and stuff, relying on tortured logic to justify the BBEG s sudden display of mercy, I d be pissed that the DM was playing too nice. Cheating me of a good tragic ending for my character.
Personally, I think if the PC s are gunning to take over the NPC s organization, the NPC should make an example out of them! After all, if he shows mercy, wont that just encourage his other minions to challenge his authority? So wipe the floor with them! If any of the PCs die, have the NPC get some unknown cleric to raise the PCs, just so he can have the pleasure of torturing them to death.
You died too quickly last time my friend, before experiencing all that I have to show you. [pulls aside curtain to show room full o torture implements] Now learn the consequences of trifling with me! [cue Evil sneer] Scream if you want to, perhaps my other minions are considering testing my authority!
Maybe give them one more warning, then drop the hammer. If the PCs can retreat, great. If not, hand em 4d6 and a fresh character sheet.
As I see it, why would the PC s benefactor BOTHER saving them? Maybe the benefactor sees them as useful tools or something, but stupid minions ain t useful, they re just failures. Does No. 1 ever save No. 2 in a Bond movie? No! Would No. 1 plan out some elaborate rescue scheme to save No. 2? No! No. 2 screwed up, so No. 1 says This organization does not tolerate failure!!! And lets him die.
It s not just a question of teaching the players a morality lesson either. Evil party games tend to be dark. As a player in one, I wouldn t expect a happy ending, and if the BBEG all of a sudden starts dishing out subdual damage and stuff, relying on tortured logic to justify the BBEG s sudden display of mercy, I d be pissed that the DM was playing too nice. Cheating me of a good tragic ending for my character.
Personally, I think if the PC s are gunning to take over the NPC s organization, the NPC should make an example out of them! After all, if he shows mercy, wont that just encourage his other minions to challenge his authority? So wipe the floor with them! If any of the PCs die, have the NPC get some unknown cleric to raise the PCs, just so he can have the pleasure of torturing them to death.
You died too quickly last time my friend, before experiencing all that I have to show you. [pulls aside curtain to show room full o torture implements] Now learn the consequences of trifling with me! [cue Evil sneer] Scream if you want to, perhaps my other minions are considering testing my authority!
Maybe give them one more warning, then drop the hammer. If the PCs can retreat, great. If not, hand em 4d6 and a fresh character sheet.
random user
First Post
I would also have the BBEG capture the PC's. Either through a spell or through other means (such as a headband that does the aforementioned message 3times/day and 3d6 dmg once per round which can't be removed except by the BBEG), he will make the PC's do something they don't want to do. If they succeed, he'll say he'll the the PC's go (of course, he could always renege heh). If not, well, plenty more stupid adventurers will come around that he can enslave.
