DMs: PrCs more effort than worth?

[Plane Sailing]

It would have been better for PrCs to have simplest prerequisites, but be always associated with an organisation, secret or not. Then, multiclassing in the PrC would require merely to find and contact said organisation, gain their trust, pass an entry test, and if successful, congratulations, you're in.

The prerequisites would be dissimulated in the test.

For examples...

This is exactly my view, and how I run PrC now.

Another problem with the PrC receipe is that it almost forces players to plan out their characters from the word go in order to be able to meet a particular PrC requirements (and what if they don't, but they travel to the far West and find out about the forgotten ancient order of the dragon knights, and are given the opportunity to join but... ah shucks they didn't take any ranks in Knowledge(nobility) and the Run feat...)

Unearthed Arcana has a nice helpful suggestion about "test based prereqs" near the end, which takes a slightly simpler version of this principle and puts some more flesh on the bones.

My current thinking is that I'd allow any PC to take any of the PrC which I allow in my current campaign no matter what their class or prerequisites, as long as they can find and convince the existing members of that PrC group to initiate them into membership. Putting the Role Playing back into RPG

Cheers

 

[Count Arioch the 28t]

Actually, I'm going with Tonguez' opinions here, most PrCs are garbage. Except too powerful is actually a rarity for a PrC, most are far too weak past the first few levels. (An unfortunate side effect with 3E/3.5E in general, most PrCs and PC classes have all their good stuff at the beginning, not at the end, save for Druid, Rogue, and to a lesser extent, monk and barbarians, along with other full casting classes.) In a system like that, cherry-picking will exist, unless banned by the DM.

With the exception of the Lion of Talisid PrC from BoED, every PrC being used by the PCs I've had to alter to be worth taking 10 levels. (A touchy proces, you want there to be incentive, but you don't want to over balance it by making it too powerful! A lot of thought needs to go into it.) However, I do think it adds to the game, and in my opinion, it's worth it, every character save the rogue has a PrC, and everyone is satisfied with belonging to an organization, being part of a little something more, it adds to the group dynamics.

(Although, things might get interesting soon. One character is a newly recruited Lion of Talisid. A different one just had an audience with Demogorgon, and has become a Thrall of Demogorgon. Both have orders to keep their affiliations secret, neither has found out yet just what the other side is up to. It's going to get interesting when the fecal matter hits the ventilation device.)

 

[Snoweel]

This is exactly my view, and how I run PrC now.

Another problem with the PrC receipe is that it almost forces players to plan out their characters from the word go in order to be able to meet a particular PrC requirements (and what if they don't, but they travel to the far West and find out about the forgotten ancient order of the dragon knights, and are given the opportunity to join but... ah shucks they didn't take any ranks in Knowledge(nobility) and the Run feat...)

One could, depending on the organisation and the nature of the PrC, join without taking levels in said PrC. It's entirely possible that most members of the order of the dragon knights don't have any levels in the PrC, instead having mostly fighter and maybe aristocrat levels (which would be nigh-impossible to distinguish between in-game).

Remember, 'levels' and 'classes' (including PrCs) are metagame concepts that don't exist in-game. That is, unless the PrC gives some goofy supernatural or spell-like ability that the character is suddenly able to perform.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

But what we've got in half a dozen or more mechanic conditions (requiring at least one feat, at least 3 skills, a minimal base attack bonus, etc.). And the in-game condition is most usually ditched altogether.

Unfortunately WotC would rather inflict pain on joining a PrC than on actually balancing a PrC. I would rather see the requirements made easier (instead of punishing) and have a PrC that is balanced by "give and take" - you give up something and you get something. (And please WotC, no more "get everything plus these penalties" PrCs, those are not the same thing.)

Personally I find feats > PrCs. Why bother with a battle-dancing PrC when you can have a feat instead?

Battle Dance [General]
Requirements: BAB +9, Dex 13+, 5 ranks in Perform (dance), taught by an elderly xenophobic swordmaster*
Benefits: [Go nuts ]

*There's nothing saying you can't add flavor or RP cream to a feat.

I'm also seeing way too many "bland" PrCs. Someone needs to explain to me why the Guild Thief PrC exists

 

[Psion]

With the exception of the Lion of Talisid PrC from BoED, every PrC being used by the PCs I've had to alter to be worth taking 10 levels.

Oh, the irony.

With the exception of apostle of peace, the PrCs were a redeeming feature of BoED AFAIAC. I have gnashed my teeth for a long time at WotC-born spellcasting prestige classes that took either too much or noting in exchange for extra class abilities. I look at the spellcasting PrCs in BoED that take out ONE level for some extra abilities and said to myself "Look! They finally got it!"

Too bad about those feats, though...

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Unfortunately WotC would rather inflict pain on joining a PrC than on actually balancing a PrC. I would rather see the requirements made easier (instead of punishing) and have a PrC that is balanced by "give and take" - you give up something and you get something. (And please WotC, no more "get everything plus these penalties" PrCs, those are not the same thing.)

Like all things, Prestige Classes are best when done in moderation. I agree with you (Psi)SeveredHead. Give me a PrC that changes abilities, not adds to them, and I'm happy. As a DM, there's very few that I pick and choose for a game world. So I wind up writing them if it's my own game. Seems to work out better that way.

 

[Olive]

I'm also seeing way too many "bland" PrCs. Someone needs to explain to me why the Guild Thief PrC exists

For the same reason as the cavalier and the mystic thurge. To fulfil an archetype that is difficult to replicate in the core class. The Guild Thief doubles asa organisation PrC. The Guild Thief is the classic thief that the rogue somethimes gets distracted from...

 

[Snoweel]

What's a 'guild thief' anyway?

imo, that archetype is covered perfectly by the rogue or the expert (for less combat-inclined thieves).

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Ideally, they should be very simple. One or two mechanic conditions (among X feat, Y rank in a skill, or ability to cast Z spell); and an in-game condition (joining a prestigious organisation).

Exactly how I design them. Thing is, where "balance" is concerned, adding such in-game considerations isn't exactly on par with demand. That is to say, if we're gearing up for a one-nighter, would my PC be rejected because I haven't joined an organization? The in-game conditions aren't part of the printed products because they are left to the GM, who can (dare I say "should") apply them as desired and relevant.

You'll find indications of this at the beginning of Monte Cook's Prestige Class Workshop, Part II.

 

[Ace]

Prestige classes : D&D :: GURPS vehicles : GURPS. Considerations like personalisation and embedding characters into settings aside, they're a gearhead toy. If you're not a gearhead, don't use them.

That was really incitefull-- I think its true at least in my case

I like GURPS, hate GURPS Vehicles

LIke D&D Hate PRC's

I don't know if its generally true but it is in my case at least

I always figured that PRC' were supposed ot get around the feat/class powers limit myself

Some concepts call for a few extra "bits" for a character that can be met with existing class abilities or the 6 feats that a character gets --

The problem is IMO when PRC's don't fit the game, are boring or are used with 3rd party stuff like weapon style bonus abilities -- things can get real imbalanced real quick --

My personal solution is to, give extra feats (1,3,5 etc) "flex" classes and use style feat chains-- rather than take "Master of Chains" as a PRC just take fetas with you spiked chain. When you take x number of feats you get a style bonus.

More flexible clases allow for many aspects of a PRC to be dropped. If you want to play a Cavalier just take fighter and tweak your special abilites accordingly --

Some PRC's can be met with the class combos/bonus idea from UA too