D&D 5E Do all the rules need to be released at once?

[Umbran]

White Wolf no longer published WoD books does it? AFAIK, WW no longer publishes RPG material to speak of. Not exactly winning business strategies to emulate.

White Wolf has been (and is currently) putting out 20th anniversary editions of its major game lines, I believe.

 

[delericho]

Yes, but historically, the game has not been "complete" upon first publication. We all know there will be supplements as time goes by, and that not everything fits in the core. Thus, goal for the initial offering is not actually pleasing everyone with the options presented, but meeting their expectations. The two are not the same. Folks will, of course, be annoyed that their pet option that came along in the Nth splatbook of one of the previous games isn't present, but when honest with themselves, they won't be able to really say they *expected* to see it in the new core.

Perhaps I didn't express myself well, but I think you misunderstand me.

Mike Mearls has talked in the past about a desire to include all the races and all the classes that have been core in any previous edition of the game. Let's take that as our baseline*.

If they publish their core set, and it is missing some of those items, the edition will be dogged with endless complaints about them "spreading out the core", and about it being incomplete at release. We know this - we've seen exactly that behaviour with 4e.

If they publish their core set and it does include all those 'core' races and 'core' classes then they'll avoid that complaint (mostly - there will always be the unreasonable outliers). The problem with this approach, though, is that people will thank them, buy their $150 of core rules... and then never buy anything again. And we've seen that behaviour with 3e (most people buy nothing, a very large group buy a PHB only, a much smaller subset buy a PHB and a splatbook, and then it drops off dramatically).

They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

* It's obviously not as simple as that. For instance, I don't care about Dragonborn and Eladrin, but I do care about Warforged and Changelings. So I wouldn't care if the former were omitted from the core, and would buy an Eberron update. But I'm only one customer. That Eberron update should only get published if there's sufficient demand for it - and given the apparent failure of Eberron under 4e, that seems rather unlikely. And, conversely, I'm reasonably sure they will see complaints if they omit Dragonborn in that first release, especially if they include Gnomes.

Where things get changed quite significantly is that the DDI probably brings in enough to keep D&D going all by itself. And I expect that, sooner or later, they would get around to adding 5e support for the Eberron races in DDI (which, in all honesty, is all I need). But that's not without its own issues - if the ongoing support is pretty much just periodic updates via eDragon, they don't need anything like their current staff.

 

[Jester David]

Related Follow-up Question


If they were to delay all the other content (extra classes, rules modules, races) for a year but have playtest documents available, would that be acceptable? Is continuing the playtest after the release of the Core Rules an adequate option?
Or once the Core rules have been released, should they just end the playtest?

 

[delericho]

If they were to delay all the other content (extra classes, rules modules, races) for a year but have playtest documents available, would that be acceptable? Is continuing the playtest after the release of the Core Rules an adequate option?

IMO, they should use the DDI to release new material early, compile any errata, and then go to print (if that remains comercially viable). Whether they call that a playtest or not is largely irrelevant, IMO.

(I'd be inclined not to make the playtest material available for free use, because I fear that many people, once they have the core rules in their hand, will consider the free playtest stuff 'good enough', and thus will not upgrade when it eventually comes to be released formally. I don't think that applies to the core rules themselves - certainly, I hope not!)

 

[Alzrius]

White Wolf has been (and is currently) putting out 20th anniversary editions of its major game lines, I believe.

As well as the Translation Guides for titles in both the Old World of Darkness and the New.

 

[steeldragons]

hmmm. Interesting question. And some interesting responses thus far.

I've done this before at least twice. Let's see if this would still be close to what I suggested before. I'll take a stab...

5e Release: Stardate whoknows.sometime.whenever mark 1.

"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition Basic Set": A lovely boxed set with the Basic game details (presumably these are 4 classes, 4 races, no "advanced modular stuff"), covering levels 1-4. Has a PHB, DMG, set of dice, "getting started" adventure module...let's call it BG1 [Basic Game 1].

"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition: Player's Handbook": This is the "standard" game release, hard bound book including the "full standard rules and options" however many races that is, classes that is, rules with dials and maybe a few "optional/sidebar rules" that are not mandatory to the game.

"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition: Dungeon Master's Guide": This is the "standard" game release, hard bound book including the "full standard rules and options", rules with dials and maybe a few "optional/sidebar rules", and "dungeon-building" information and advice that is treated with as much importance as "dungeon mastering" advice and information.

"SG1 -MenacingAdjective EvilNoun of PlaceName: An Adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition": Starting adventure for the "standard" game.

One month later...

"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition: Monster Manual": This is the "standard" game release, hard bound book including D&D's most traditional/popular/historic/IP creatures, including tips and info for introducing/including monster race PCs, maybe a couple of special monster race classes, LOTS of tables/appendices for monster placement: by level, by terrain, by type, etc...

"BG 2: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e Basic Set." [low levels]
"BG 3: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e Basic Set." [mid levels]
"SG 3: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e" [low levels]
"SG 4: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e" [mid-levels]
"SG 5: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e" [high levels]

3 months from initial release date:
"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition: Advanced Modules Manual": This is the "advanced" game release, hard bound book including a full array of additional rules' options, however many additional races or classes, additional rules and dials. None of this is mandatory unless you want to play an "all advanced" game. ALL of it is optional for addition to the Basic or Standard games.

"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition: Deities & Demigods": This is the "standard" game release, hard bound book including the "standard" array of traiditonal D&D setting pantheons, rules for dealing with and/or attaining immortality/divinity, additional cleric/druid rules' options, powers, maybe a few additional spells, and advice and information on developing your own religions, temples, cults, gods/pantheons from scratch.

"BG 4: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e Basic Set." [low levels]
"BG 5: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e Basic Set." [mid levels]
"SG 6: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e" [mid levels]
"AG 1: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e: Advanced" [low levels]

6 months from initial release...
"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition: World Builder's Tome": This is the "standard" game release that incorporates lots of "advanced" option sidebars (particularly for the exploration and interactive pillars), hard bound book including a full array of additional information, advice and optional rules for creating your own adventures (of any/all pillar types), traps, NPCs, treasure advice/info/tables and environments.

"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition: Basic's Explorer": This is the equivalent of the "Expert" boxed set for the Basic Game, covering levels 5-15. Boxed set with PHB and DMG each with expanded rules, options, powers, maybe a few additional classes.

"Campaign Codex 1: Forgotten Realms for Dungeons & Dragons 5e." [since they've already said FR will be the standard game's default setting]: This is the "standard" game release, hard bound book including all setting relevant things for the Forgotten Realms campaign setting.

"BG 6: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e Basic Set." [mid levels]
"BG 7: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e Basic Set." [high levels]
"SG 7: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e" [mid levels]
"AG 2: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e: Advanced" [low levels]

1 year after release:

"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition: Manual of the Planes": This is the "standard" game release that incorporates lots of "advanced" option sidebars (particularly for the exploration and interactive pillars), hard bound book including a full array of information, advice and options of traditional D&D extra-planar organization, creating your own cosmology, extra-planar NPCs & monsters, classes and extra-planar adventuring.

"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition: Grimoire Compleat": This is the "standard" game release that incorporates lots of "advanced" option sidebars, hard bound book including a full array of ALL spells (released to date) for all spell-casting classes, information, advice and options of alternate magic systems, creating your own (and sample) mage guilds/organizations, psionics powers, magical societies/races...maybe additional/specialized/"prestige" caster classes.

"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition: Fiend Folio": This is the "standard" game release, hard bound book including all new monsters, maybe a couple of new classes or monster PC races (if there's anything left). More tables/appendices for monster placement: by level, by terrain, etc...

"Campaign Codex 2: Greyhawk for Dungeons & Dragons 5e.": This is the "standard" game release, hard bound book including all setting relevant things for the Greyhawk campaign setting.

"BG 8: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e Basic Set." [mid levels]
"BG 9: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e Basic Set." [mid levels]
"BG 10: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e Basic Set." [high levels]
"SG 8: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e" [mid levels]
"SG 9: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e" [high levels]
"SG 10: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e" [high levels]
"AG 2: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e: Advanced" [mid levels]
"AG 3: An adventure for Dungeons & Dragons 5e: Advanced" [high levels]

1.5 years after initial release...

"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition: Basic's Legends": This is the equivalent of the "Companion" boxed set for the Basic Game, covering levels 16-30. Boxed set with PHB and DMG each with [yet further] expanded rules, options, powers, maybe a few additional classes.

"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition: Unearthed Arcana": This is the "standard" game release, hard bound book including a couple of new classes or races (if there's anything left), spells, powers, and any DMing options that have yet to be covered or have surfaced (in Dragon articles or wherever, from the initial releases).

"Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition: Advanced Modules Compendium": This is the "advanced" game release, hard bound book including a full array of additional rules' options and dials (anything that hasn't already been covered or come up since the first Advanced release). None of this is mandatory unless you want to play an "all advanced" game. ALL of it is optional for addition to the Basic or Standard games.

"Campaign Codex 3: Eberron for Dungeons & Dragons 5e.": This is the "standard" game release, hard bound book including all setting relevant things for the Eberron campaign setting.

"Campaign Codex 4: Planescape for Dungeons & Dragons 5e.": This is the "standard" game release, hard bound book including all setting relevant things for the Planescape campaign setting.

"Campaign Codex 5: Dragonlance for Dungeons & Dragons 5e.": This is the "standard" game release, hard bound book including all setting relevant things for the Dragonlance campaign setting.

Possssibly, come out with a full campaign/adventure path/whatever its called these days: mega-module adventure story that takes you through, say, 10 levels or so. Starting at level whatever and going to level whatever. As the first of this sort of releases for 5e, I'd start with level 1 and go to level 10. Others/further can be made for things like "levels 5-20" or "3-15" or whatever.

Gage reactions and interest for continuing produced/printed adventure modules. If people want 'em, keep making them. Or offer downloadable PDF ones online (which all of the above printed ones should be available as, without art, at maybe half the price).7

Go from there...but shouldn't be difficult to figure what else to do/is wanted once you're into the 2nd year.

 

[Stalker0]

As a better way of explaining, it needs to feel that I have the selection of 3e out of the gate, not constrained like 4e initially was.

Completely agree here. 4e's problem was that it had a more "use the box" mentality. In 3e, multiclassing was used to create the blends of archetypes people wanted, while in 4e whole classes were designed to accommodate that. 4e's system wasn't wrong, except that it provided so little at the beginning that the game felt incomplete. I will also say the magic items provided at the beginning were so few as to be pathetic.

I don't need everything to start playing 5e, but i need a lot. I need a good array of classes, races, magic items, monsters, and traps. Ruleswise, i also want some of those fancier tactical modules, as i like a bit more tactics in my combat.

 

[Jester David]

IMO, they should use the DDI to release new material early, compile any errata, and then go to print (if that remains comercially viable). Whether they call that a playtest or not is largely irrelevant, IMO.

(I'd be inclined not to make the playtest material available for free use, because I fear that many people, once they have the core rules in their hand, will consider the free playtest stuff 'good enough', and thus will not upgrade when it eventually comes to be released formally. I don't think that applies to the core rules themselves - certainly, I hope not!)

I don’t think WotC can remain relevant if they continue to huddle in fear of people stealing their content. The continued success of 3rd Edition (especially via Paizo), the short life of 4e, and the success of D&D Classics has really emphasised that people will give you money for content they could get for free so long as they want to, so long as they perceive the value. Making the content easily and cheaply accessible is a huge perk.

 

[Stormonu]

All I can say is that I won't buy into the system until there is a PHB, MM and DMG available, with at least as much material in them as in the 3E incarnations. I simply have no desire to try and implement an 'incomplete' version of D&D when I already have so many versions already available at my fingertips.

 

[Stalker0]

I don’t think WotC can remain relevant if they continue to huddle in fear of people stealing their content. The continued success of 3rd Edition (especially via Paizo)

Some would argue that pathfinder became a true competitor because wotc was so open with their license. In that way, the fear maybe justified.