D&D 5E Do all the rules need to be released at once?

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Some would argue that pathfinder became a true competitor because wotc was so open with their license. In that way, the fear maybe justified.

I'm not sure I buy that completely since they weren't competitors until after their licenses were cut and the new game was moving away from the OGL. They might have continued in alliance had there been better and timely licensing.
 

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Hussar

Legend
White Wolf has been (and is currently) putting out 20th anniversary editions of its major game lines, I believe.

It's a bit hard to know. I went to the WW site and it's down. Their facebook page hasn't been updated since 2011. I'm thinking they're not really all that into print RPG's.
 

Hussar

Legend
I'm not sure I buy that completely since they weren't competitors until after their licenses were cut and the new game was moving away from the OGL. They might have continued in alliance had there been better and timely licensing.

Do you think Paizo would have continued on had WOTC taken Dungeon and Dragon back under their wing? Or would Paizo have been more or less forced to go the Pathfinder route anyway? I'm not really sure if it's purely an OGL thing. The fact that Paizo lost its biggest revenue maker likely had a lot more to do with the creation of Pathfinder than WOTC moving away from OGL since Paizo, prior to 4e, wasn't really an OGL publisher in the first place.

Yes, I do realize that they had some OGL stuff. I know that. But the vast majority of their efforts were put into the Dungeon and Dragon licenses. Neither of which were OGL.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Do you think Paizo would have continued on had WOTC taken Dungeon and Dragon back under their wing? Or would Paizo have been more or less forced to go the Pathfinder route anyway? I'm not really sure if it's purely an OGL thing. The fact that Paizo lost its biggest revenue maker likely had a lot more to do with the creation of Pathfinder than WOTC moving away from OGL since Paizo, prior to 4e, wasn't really an OGL publisher in the first place.

Yes, I do realize that they had some OGL stuff. I know that. But the vast majority of their efforts were put into the Dungeon and Dragon licenses. Neither of which were OGL.

The first 4 adventure paths were all 3.5 and under the OGL AND all after losing the Dragon/Dungeon licenses. The PF RPG was a response to needing a ruleset in print and desire to own their own original IP. Erik Mona, at least, posted some serious questions to us on the boards seeking fan reactions to different courses of action. OGL does not lead inexorably to PF and head to head competition with WotC.
 

Do you think Paizo would have continued on had WOTC taken Dungeon and Dragon back under their wing? Or would Paizo have been more or less forced to go the Pathfinder route anyway? I'm not really sure if it's purely an OGL thing. The fact that Paizo lost its biggest revenue maker likely had a lot more to do with the creation of Pathfinder than WOTC moving away from OGL since Paizo, prior to 4e, wasn't really an OGL publisher in the first place.

Yes, I do realize that they had some OGL stuff. I know that. But the vast majority of their efforts were put into the Dungeon and Dragon licenses. Neither of which were OGL.
They went with Pathfinder because WotC didn't release the GSL and Paizo needed to go to start writing and printing products. And WotC was being silent. So they sent ONE employee to D&DXP in 2008 and based on his opinion the company opted to go their own route.
WotC could have easily partnered with Paizo, giving them the GSL and promising them continual access to the playtest if Paizo agreed to swap to 4e at launch. Plus, this would have gotten more playtesters looking at 4e which might have caught some of the earlier problems sooner. Paizo, being nervous and uncertain about the future, would have happily signed at that time. Especially since they were very happy being the Adventure Path people.

While I think the OGL went a little too far, it's easy to have open content and make the game accessible to 3rd Party Publishers and the fans without going as far as they did. Just having a restriction on reprinting the core rules or capping it at a percentage would be fine. "You can copy the text of class features, spells, feats, and skills but no more than 30% of any one section can be copied." Bam. Stops that problem from happening again but still permits 3PP. Add a clause saying "You can copy the complete rules but cannot sell access, publish physical copies, or modify the content of the text" and it even allows things like the hypertest SRD.
 

delericho

Legend
Do you think Paizo would have continued on had WOTC taken Dungeon and Dragon back under their wing?

IMO, the non-renewal of the magazine licenses was the single worst mistake WotC have made since 3.5e was released ahead of schedule.

The immediate consequence of that decision was that the Pathfinder AP product came into existence. Renew the licenses, and that doesn't happen.

But Paizo have also said, on occasion, that they don't really have the manpower to support both PF and 4e. If Paizo still had the magazine license, they'd no doubt be required to have those move to supporting 4e... and that means there would be no room for Pathfinder.

Not renewing those licenses is almost certainly directly responsible for turning D&D's biggest cheerleader into its most dangerous competitor.

Even worse (from WotC's point of view), the market for print magazines is worse than it was when the licenses ended. It's not terribly unlikely that the magazines might well have folded in the interim anyway - and in that case would probably have taken Paizo with them.

(It is worth noting that even if Paizo had gone to 4e, it's quite possible that someone else would have done a 3.5e successor game - Goodman, or Necromancer/Frog God, or someone. But there's no guarantee that it would still be around; Paizo are pretty exceptional in several ways, so changing the company involved would mean more than just changing the name.)
 

tangleknot

Explorer
If 4th edition was a better game than 3.0/3.5 people would be playing 4th. A pathfinder variant probobly would have sprung up but wouldn't have gotten vary far.
Instead players opted for a decade old game that still has terrible flaws, and an overwhelming amount of rules.

In addition WOTC forgot that much of the success with 3.0/3.5 was the OGL. They should have never cut that cord and forced companies, dependent on the OGL to find alternative revenue sources.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
IMO, the non-renewal of the magazine licenses was the single worst mistake WotC have made since 3.5e was released ahead of schedule.

Moreover, the non-renewal of the Dragon/Dungeon licensing underlined the issue of being a company dependent on someone else's licensing. Lisa Stevens has said they don't want to do that again. To be acceptable to Paizo, the 4e license would have had to be quite open and, I'm sure, have no provision for revocation or forced withdrawal of products created under it.

I wouldn't call Paizo D&D's biggest cheerleader - I would have called Necromancer, or more specifically Clark Peterson, D&D's biggest cheerleader. And the restrictive licence of 4e cost WotC his support as well.

In any event, WotC blundered over quite a few elements of the 4e launch whatever anyone thinks of the game's design and playability. I think most of us would agree that we hope they learned a set of lessons from it.
 

delericho

Legend
I wouldn't call Paizo D&D's biggest cheerleader - I would have called Necromancer, or more specifically Clark Peterson, D&D's biggest cheerleader.

Depends how you define 'biggest', I guess. Clark was certainly very vocal, but in terms of published support product (and, perhaps more to the point, sales), Paizo must surely win - I doubt any third-party products sold as many copies as Dragon did each and every month.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
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