Do Bards still suck?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, FOR THE LAST TIME...

A Bard has always been able to maintain inspire courage as a free action (at least in 3.5, I honestly don't remember how it was in 3.0) This is nothing new. It's not some grand boon PF gave them. It was there already! I quoted the rules text exactly to that effect upthread. Why do people continue to say otherwise?!

 

[Starbuck_II]

Ok, FOR THE LAST TIME...

A Bard has always been able to maintain inspire courage as a free action (at least in 3.5, I honestly don't remember how it was in 3.0) This is nothing new. It's not some grand boon PF gave them. It was there already! I quoted the rules text exactly to that effect upthread. Why do people continue to say otherwise?!

I guess because no one in Pathfinder actually read the text in 3.5 and assumed otherwise. So they had to be explicit in the text.

 

[Shisumo]

Because a) it wasn't the case in 3.0, just in 3.5, so it's a legacy rules issue that gets confused, and b) because d6 HD 3.5 bards didn't fight all that much, so their inability to cast spells is what people remember anyway.

 

[Kaisoku]

It was a standard action to maintain concentration on some performances. This has been changed to a free action (I looked at the differences between 3.5e SRD and Pathfdinder PRD, this is one of them). Yeah, this only affected a couple things, but it makes them that much more usable.

The 3.5e Bard was never able to cast spells or use "magic word" items (so no wands to bypass this either) with any performance.
If your DM didn't hand-waive stuff to the way Pathfinder does now, then it's a significant improvement, actually. The main one that people are talking about.

I lumped all those little changes into one big chunk that I feel pushes playing the Bard a much easier/fun thing to do. Each individual bump is nice, but on the whole, it feels less inhibited as a class.

 

[Kaisoku]

The bard in my PF game was pretty disappointed.

...
still fairly weak at personally fighting with some modest improvements.

You might want to check out the Archetypes for the Bard. The Arcane Duelist seems like a pretty good fighter:
- Gain arcane strike for free (instead of having to burn a feat)
- Medium Armor casting
- replace (the non-combaty) suggestion performances with adding variable enhancements to weapons (need ghost touch? a +4 weapon for bypassing adamantine DR?)
- Bonus feats, up to and including fighter-only DR bypassing feats
- Arcane bond so you can enhance your weapon without needing the feats, and can cast somatic components while holding it (twohanded weapons included)

Until the Magus came along, it seemed a pretty good "gish" class (fighter-magic user).

With Ultimate Magic out, you could even combine that with Songhealer and get some nice high level healing capability (since they don't replace things from Arcane Duelist, I believe). The "use curative wands at your own caster level" can be significant cost savings at lower levels if you are running the bard in a group without a divine caster (and even with them if you are using wands to top up anyways).

 

[MichaelSomething]

As a bard fan, I feel the need to defend them. However, I already written a blog post explaining it! The cool thing about having a blog is that you can pre write your opinion on subjects that come up on a regular basis!

 

[Gazra]

I agree with the sentiment that if you think Bards suck, it's because you want to play something else.

They are engineered to be a jack-of-all-trades. The downside to their utility is that they don't excel at any one thing. What they can do, that no other class can, is fill a gap at a moment's notice. In smaller groups, however, the gaps are too large for one character to be reasonably expected to fill and their lack of specialty can become a liability.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Melee attack while playing an instrument?

Hey, I was thinking I should ask my question here instead of making a new thread:

It is stated here that it is only a free action to sustain Inspire Courage, and that you can even cast spells while doing so. However there is nothing in the class description or here about what kind of Perform skills are allowed to use, or what you can do alongside. So here are the questions:

1. Can a bard play a mandolin a standard action, then sustain it as a free action while using a shield and sword to fight?

2. Do they still need a hand free to cast spells?

3. Are they required to keep actually singing, chanting, talking, playing or even acting, while sustaining bardic music?

If common sense (rule 0?) says you need hands free to play an instrument, then it seems verbal Perform skills are still the only logical choice for a bard that want to be able to fight.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Hey, I was thinking I should ask my question here instead of making a new thread:

It is stated here that it is only a free action to sustain Inspire Courage

Yes, every edition this was true.
The only musics in 3.5 that needed maintaining were Suggestion, Fascinate, and Countersong. But this is an often overlooked fact.

, and that you can even cast spells while doing so.

New thing in Pathfinder, as before it ended the maintaining (but not the 5 rd sustaining).

1. Can a bard play a mandolin a standard action, then sustain it as a free action while using a shield and sword to fight?

No, you have to keep playing in Pathfinder each rd. (no one ever uses a Mandolin in D&D for that reason).
Why are you using one?

2. Do they still need a hand free to cast spells?

That never changed.

3. Are they required to keep actually singing, chanting, talking, playing or even acting, while sustaining bardic music?

Yes, 3.5 was better in this as you could end it and it was sustained for 5 rds thereafter.


But yes, you have to keep singing /beatboxing/ whistling/ chanting/ talking/ acting for all the rds you use it.

When people talk about warrior bards, they never play mandolins.

 

[Kaisoku]

The APG has the feat Lingering Performance. Makes it last for 2 rounds after you stop maintaining it. Similar effect for the 3.5e Inspire Courage, only it works on any bardic performance.