Do Dexterity penalties apply to Escape Artist checks?

[Vegepygmy]

A player of mine has raised a valid question, IMO. First, the pertinent rules:

USE ROPE (Dex)
With this skill, you can make firm knots, undo tricky knots, and bind prisoners with ropes. (PHB page 86.)​

Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. (Entangle spell description, PHB page 277.)​

An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to its effective Dexterity score. (PHB page 308.)​

helpless:

​

Paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). (PHB page 309.)​

Now the set-up:​

The PCs got into a fight with a druid, who cast entangle on them. After failing his save and becoming entangled, one PC tried to break free by making an Escape Artist check. I reminded him that his effective Dexterity score was 4 less, so his Escape Artist check modifier (normally +4) should be 2 lower (+2).​

A different player questioned whether that made sense. By RAW, I have no doubt that it is correct, but I began to question the RAI. The player pointed out that a helpless creature has an effective Dexterity of 0, and that a bound creature is considered helpless. Thus, a bound creature would suffer a severe penalty to his Escape Artist check...but the whole point of Escape Artist is to do things like escape from being tied up.​

Remembering that Use Rope is opposed by Escape Artist when tying someone up, at first I thought maybe that was the intent; after all, you can't take 20 on Use Rope to tie someone up, but they can take 20 to Escape Artist out of it, so Use Rope needs some kind of advantage or else it would be pretty much impossible for an ordinary person to effectively tie up another ordinary person. But then I checked the rules and found that they already account for this by giving the binder a +10 bonus simply for being the binder.​

Now let's take the example of my player's PC with 14 Dex and 2 ranks of Escape Artist. He normally has a +4 check modifier, but if he's entangled it drops to +2, and if someone ties him up, it drops to -3. Let's assume that the binder is a totally ordinary person with 10 Dex and no ranks in Use Rope. That person can take 10 on his Use Rope check, and with the +10 bonus for being a binder, set the Escape Artist DC at 20. Even my player's trained, agile PC can't escape by taking 20, since the highest check result he can obtain is 17. In fact, even with a +2 circumstance modifier, he still fails (19).​

And don't even think about escaping from manacles (Escape Artist DC 30)!​

So, the question:

What do you think? Is that the intent? It seems to make Escape Artist (a skill that not many people spend points on anyway) even less useful than I thought. Or do the Escape Artist DCs already reflect the fact that the character is restrained in some fashion? (It seems kind of odd that they wouldn't.)​

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Wow. 3.5 continues to surprise.

By RAW, I can't find or think of any reason Dexterity penalties wouldn't apply.

However, I also believe that if it were intended that they apply, the Escape Artist entry would mention it. It's understandable that other relevant areas of the rules -- Reflex saves, for instance -- don't reference the penalties, but Escape Artist?

So: RAW, yes; my game, no.

 

[irdeggman]

Remembering that Use Rope is opposed by Escape Artist when tying someone up, at first I thought maybe that was the intent; after all, you can't take 20 on Use Rope to tie someone up, but they can take 20 to Escape Artist out of it, so Use Rope needs some kind of advantage or else it would be pretty much impossible for an ordinary person to effectively tie up another ordinary person. But then I checked the rules and found that they already account for this by giving the binder a +10 bonus simply for being the binder.

Why can't you take 20 on a use rope check to tie someone up?

The rules don't say that that it is forbidden they also do not have a "penalty" for failure.

It takes 1 minute to tie someone up so taking 20 would make that 20 minutes.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The +10 bonus for the binder, iirc, is because it's easier to tie the rope than it is for someone who's restrained by it to undo it. That said, I also wouldn't give the tied up person a dex penalty on his escape artist check to escape, rules be damned.

Off topic, but yet another, "wow, escape artist sucks even more than I thought!" moment: Happened in game when my small character tried to use EA to avoid being grappled by a Tendriculous. The Dm pointed out the SRD rules on grappling: Special Attacks :: d20srd.org

Note that nowhere under starting a grapple is EA mentioned. It is only mentioned under escaping a grapple, which the DM interpretted to mean that you cannot use EA until after being grappled. Which in the case of many monsters...like the tendriculous...is cold comfort. No one else in the group had ever run EA that way before. Needless to say after that, I made a very clear houserule on the matter. (Revolving DM, me as lead, so while I had to abide by his ruling for the session, never again will it be an issue --and everyone else agreed with me anyway).

 

[Vegepygmy]

Why can't you take 20 on a use rope check to tie someone up?

From the 3.5 FAQ

If a check’s success or failure depends on another character’s opposed roll, both sides have to roll when that opposition occurs—you can’t take 20 and “save up” the maximum result. If you hide in the bushes to attack a group of orcs that will walk by later, you can’t take 20 on the Hide check, since the success or failure of your Hide check isn’t resolved until the orcs make their Spot checks. You can’t take 20 on a Use Rope check to tie someone up, since you don’t really know how successful you’ve been until that enemy tries to struggle free.​

 

[Jeff Wilder]

From the 3.5 FAQ

[Generally speaking, no Take 20 on opposed rolls.]

Whether you can Take 20 on Escape Artist checks (to escape being tied up) is more in question, but IMO "no."

Try Again

Varies. You can make another check after a failed check if you’re squeezing your way through a tight space, making multiple checks. If the situation permits, you can make additional checks, or even take 20, as long as you’re not being actively opposed.

The above rules entry would seem to make it arguable (vaguely) that you could Take 20 to escape being bound, but:

Bind a Character

When you bind another character with a rope, any Escape Artist check that the bound character makes is opposed by your Use Rope check.

You get a +10 bonus on this check because it is easier to bind someone than to escape from bonds. You don’t even make your Use Rope check until someone tries to escape.

(The emphasis is mine.) This entry makes it pretty iron-clad that you can't Take 20 to escape being bound.

Interesting. Lots of rolling in a bound prisoner scenario, looks like? If it's the PCs doing the binding, the DM should probably make all the rolls, unless you want the PCs suddenly getting much more interested in watching the prisoner. In addition, the DM will probably make Spot checks to see if anybody notices the squirming.

You could just say that the first check controls, I suppose, barring the bound prisoner's Escape Artist modifier improving, which does seem like a more elegant solution (and may well be what's intended). It would seem to come down to whether the DM considered the deferred Use Rope check to be "active opposition;" if so, the first check should be the only check.

 

[irdeggman]

Hmm that does make it interesting.

PHB pg

Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.

From the FAQ

Similarly, if a check’s success or failure depends on another character’s opposed roll, both sides have to roll when that opposition occurs—you can’t take 20 and “save up” the maximum result. If you hide in the bushes to attack a group of orcs that will walk by later, you can’t take 20 on the Hide check, since the success or failure of your Hide check isn’t resolved until the orcs make their Spot checks. You can’t take 20 on a Use Rope check to tie someone up, since you don’t really know how successful you’ve been until that enemy tries to struggle free.

Interesting to note that the earlier in the answer it states:

• The check allows you to try again. Each skill has a “Try Again” entry that lists whether you can attempt the same task again. If you can’t retry the task, you can’t take 20 (since taking 20 involves retrying the task). You can’t retry a Decipher Script check, so taking 20 is out of the question.

Which is false since Use Rope doe not have a Try Again entry - which because of this missing information causes the question in the first place, IMO.

I think I would go with Jeff Wilder on this one. If you can't take 20 on an opposed check (the logic used for the Use Rope check) then you can't take 20 on an Escape Artist check to get unbound since the DC isn't set until you make the Escape Artist check.

But since it is in the FAQ (and we don't have on opposing higher level rules source to use to counter it - I would go with you can't take 20 on a Use Rope check to bind someone per RAW).

 

[Abciximab]

Originally Posted by From the SRD -- "Use Rope"
Bind a Character

When you bind another character with a rope, any Escape Artist check that the bound character makes is opposed by your Use Rope check.

You get a +10 bonus on this check because it is easier to bind someone than to escape from bonds. You don’t even make your Use Rope check until someone tries to escape.

(The emphasis is mine.) This entry makes it pretty iron-clad that you can't Take 20 to escape being bound.

Reading the SRD entry I don't see it as iron clad against taking 20. Just that you make your Use rope roll when the Escape Artist check is made. I saw the Can't Take 20 on Opposed checks post but I've always used...

From SRD under Escape Artist

Try Again
Varies. You can make another check after a failed check if you’re squeezing your way through a tight space, making multiple checks. If the situation permits, you can make additional checks, or even take 20, as long as you’re not being actively opposed.

It states you can take 20 and since this is one of those time when a character is probably just going to try again and again. I use one Use Rope roll at +10 vs the characters Take 20 Escape Artist to save time.

 

[irdeggman]

Now it does take 20 minutes to take 20 on an Escape Artist check (i.e., 20 times the normal time which is 1 minute).

Also you can be faced with no threats or distractions.

Taking 20:When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.

Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.
Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.

So if the guard is checking on you at any regular basis (less than 20 minutes apart) - you can't take 20.

Some food for thought.