Do grognards have to be jerks?

[Dannager]

Once again though, you fall in the trap of the self selected data mentioned before.

One can paint the nice illusion of the noble 4e avenger defending themselves against all the grognards, but it is just that, an illusion.

It is 100%, the original poster self selected data. Any researcher will tell you so.

You are free to offer an alternative explanation that addresses the difference between defending what one enjoys and hating on what one does not like. I don't think you have an alternative explanation, but you can certainly give it a shot.

And no, any researcher will not tell you so. Any researcher who gives a damn knows that self-selection is a confound, and that there's rarely such a thing as a confound that cannot be adjusted for, and that there's almost never such a thing as a confound that affects the data by as much as 100% in either direction. Don't toss the "any researcher knows this!" line out there unless you're actually familiar with research.

 

[JeffB]

I don't think it is that grognards have to be jerks. I think it is that a significant portion of the geek community is (willfully or not) deficient in some basic communication and etiquette skills.

Indeed- doesn;t matter how old or young or what system.

Locally, in years past I have had the most militant ignorant gamer issues with 3.5 fans, & some HackMaster folks.

When I was a kid, there were a big % of local gamers who hated (A)D&D period and you were not a real RPG'er unless you played Rolemaster, RQ, C&S, etc.

It's a big reason I don't go to any (F)LGS or Local Cons anymore. Too many stereotypical Gamers that drive me nuts, or still have not figured out how to best utilize soap, shampoo, and toothpaste in their 30+ years on earth.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I've always wondered at this. For the past couple of years I've really kept an eye out for 4e fans hating on the games other people play, and I rarely see it.

The Lords of ENWorld banished the 4E and Pathfinder kids to separate rooms for a reason, when everyone else is capable of mixing together without problems. (Even the oWoD and nWoD partisans here, scattered thought they may be, play nicely.) Both groups definitely have their problematic members.

 

[EYEforanEYE]

I sometimes feel that adherents to "old school" styles of play are often inflexible in their opinions. There seems to be a refusal to accept that fun, playable games have been written after 1983. To support this assertion, I would direct you to any number of "Old School Renaissance" blogs.

HA HA, there is a place called K&K ALEHOUSE full of those kinds of grognards. They are hostile, nasty, and full of bile.

 

[Mournblade94]

You are free to offer an alternative explanation that addresses the difference between defending what one enjoys and hating on what one does not like. I don't think you have an alternative explanation, but you can certainly give it a shot.

And no, any researcher will not tell you so. Any researcher who gives a damn knows that self-selection is a confound, and that there's rarely such a thing as a confound that cannot be adjusted for, and that there's almost never such a thing as a confound that affects the data by as much as 100% in either direction. Don't toss the "any researcher knows this!" line out there unless you're actually familiar with research.

Irrelevant. THe original poster made no attempt at self correction. Pointing out that self selection is 'merely a confound and can be self corrected' is obvious. The op made no attempt to self correct.

'the difference between defending what one enjoys and hating on what one does not like' was not what you explained. You identified one particular group as doing one or the other. Deflection, did not quite work there.

4e players do not defend what they enjoy exclusively.
older edition players do not hate other games exclusively amongst their group. That is what is being discussed.

I will absolutely throw out 'any researcher will tell you..." because i am a researcher, and I just completed research on evapotranspiration and rain shadow effect on biomes (i.e. how plants change moisture in deserts)
Since I am a professional researcher and educator, consider yourself schooled. Or not. We cannot help everyone.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

One grognard went so far as to compare a game company to the Nazis and say that anyone who purchased their current products were mindless sheep - and of course I had a bag of their stuff by my chair.

To people like this I usually just say "Baaaaaaaa(h)".


More seriously, I wonder about the Fundamental Attribution Error, FAE, as some have mentioned without the social psychology terminology.

Fundamental Attribution Error

Description

When we are trying to understand and explain what happens in social settings, we tend to view behavior as a particularly significant factor. We then tend to explain behavior in terms of internal disposition, such as personality traits, abilities, motives, etc. as opposed to external situational factors.
This can be due to our focus on the person more than their situation, about which we may know very little. We also know little about how they are interpreting the situation.
Western culture exacerbates this error, as we emphasize individual freedom and autonomy and are socialized to prefer dispositional factors to situational ones.
When we are playing the role of observer, which is largely when we look at others, we make this fundamental attribution error. When we are thinking about ourselves, however, we will tend to make situational attributions.

In more lay terms...if I'm late for work and I'm speeding, it's because I'm late.
If I see someone else speeding (maybe even while I'm late for work and speeding myself) I tend to think they're a jerk who is in too much of a hurry.

So, yeah, grognards are jerks...unless you're a perfectly reasonable grognard.

 

[Mournblade94]

One grognard went so far as to compare a game company to the Nazis and say that anyone who purchased their current products were mindless sheep - and of course I had a bag of their stuff by my chair.

The problem here is the desensitized term NAZI. It is done throughout society and it is quite troubling.

People throw the term NAZI around without understanding what was a NAZI.

I do not mean this in the sense of the 'soup nazi' from seinfeld. I mean this in the sense of people identifying NAZI wrongly to mean anyone they disagree with.

It is troubling, especially when Nazi's spread actual real suffering and pain.

 

[Dannager]

The Lords of ENWorld banished the 4E and Pathfinder kids to separate rooms for a reason, when everyone else is capable of mixing together without problems.

Let's consider, for a moment, that such separation might be warranted even if only one of the two groups was being problematic.

Either way, though, I frequent a number of online communities and my observations have held pretty steady across them - not a lot of current-edition players griping about other games, lots of older-edition players griping about newer games.

It seems to me to be very similar to how my generation thinks it's cute that people used to write physical letters to each other (but we never really complain about it since we just don't care), and how my parents' generation has a reputation for ranting about kids these days and their texting and IMing ruining society (or, at least, used to rant until they got addicted to Facebook themselves).

 

[nedjer]

Grognard? I assume we're actually referring to the distinguished Silver Gamer.

Now run along children while I wax my fine moustache with some fresh tiger balm

 

[ExploderWizard]

It is troubling, especially when Nazi's spread actual real suffering and pain.

Ah so you have played the Indiana Jones rpg too.