Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[Emirikol]

How do characters ask for a +3 longsword, anyway?

I'd like to see that written up in a novel:

"Uhm, hello Mr. Shopkeeper Wizard sir..."
"Yes, how may I help you?"
"Uhm, I'm not sure if I'm asking this right. I feel the compunction to have something called a +3 longsword after going on a murderous rampage against some sentient creatures and looting their still-breating blood-stained bodies."
"Ah, yes! Certainly. We have the +1, +2 and +3 versions right here."
"Well, how do you know the difference?"
"Trust me, I'm a wizard. I'm the next most trusted profession other than paladin."
"Well, uhm, how do you "KNOW" that it's a +3?"
"Look at your character sheet."
"Look at my what???"
"Well son, everyone in this world has something called a character sheet. It's like a rap sheet kept by the constable..only yours is kept by some strange supernatural being in the sky called a PLAYER."
"Ooooh. I have a PLAYER?"
"Yes, and he is the one compelling you to get this 'thing' called a +3 longsword. It means that he's compensating for something."
"My player is compensating for something?"
"Sure. Don't be bothered by it too much. Many players have compensation issues."
"Does that make ME have compensation issues?"
"Evidently, or you wouldn't be in here trading in these boots of speed for a +3 sword."
"Boots of speed? I just thought the label was cool. 'Rothgar the quick' and that when I put them on they made me run and fight really fast..they acutally have a technical name?"
"Yes, all things have technical name. It's like LATIN."
"What's LATIN?"
"OK, let me tell you what you do. I want you to go on a quest..a quest for a holy book. It's called the DUNGEONMASTER'S GUIDE. Inside you'll find all the answers to all your questions."
"Where do I find this DUNGEONMASTERS GUIDE?"
"In terrible reeking shops filled with grotesque humanoid creatures called gamers."
"Oooh, sounds like a lovely quest. Do I slay the gamers?"
"Yes, and you can loot their bloody corpses for paper money."
"Paper money? What the heck?"
"Again with the questions! Seek now your DUNGEONMASTERS GUIDE!"
"EEEeeeeeoooooookaaaaay!"

jh





..

 

[molonel]

Which spirit? The spirit of 1st edition, 2nd edition or 3rd edition? The one where we grew up reading Conan or the one where we grew up playing Final Fantasy VII?

3rd Edition was actually the edition under which the BEST gaming world equivalent of Robert E. Howard's Conan was created:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpg/series.php?qsSeries=7

Even before that, we saw significant efforts to recreate Conan under the 3.0 rules set:

http://www.enworld.org/Inzeladun/conan.htm

I've never played Final Fantasy. But this whole "We play a roleplaying game, and you play a video game" straw man evidently never grows old to some folks.

 

[FireLance]

I have an honest question for those who like the idea of players being able to choose specific items from the books and then have their characters buy them. If that's how the game's supposed to be played -- if it's the by-the-book norm under the current rules -- why would any PC ever bother with the crafting feats? Why spend XP to create an item when you can simply buy it?

Some players don't mind trading a bit of xp for a gp discount off the magic item they want, especially if it won't make much of a difference to their actual level (a wizard with 11,000 xp and one with 10,500 xp are still both 5th level).

In other games (like mine) magic item creation feats don't have an xp cost, but provide a 25% discount on the cost to acquire magic items that the character could make himself.

 

[diaglo]

How do characters ask for a +3 longsword, anyway?

for the 1st lvl fighter: i want a magical weapon that will make me an equal of... (insert 4th lvl fighter's name) in combat.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

Does the overcustomization and overtwinking of the game wreck the spirit of the game? Does it just become a Mario-Bro's game where you're just trying to get enough "coins?" Can you hear the blinging sound in your campaigns?

jh

Yes.

 

[Piratecat]

Yes.

Well, based on that highly detailed and well-supported opinion, let me offer a valid counterpoint:

No.

I think now we have a slap-fight to see who wins.

 

[Storm Raven]

I have in my campaign allowed potions and scrolls to be purchased in small amounts from alchemists, churches, and wizards but IMO if you go much beyond that magic items cease to be magical and wonderous, and players cease to feel like they've accomplished something important when finding a powerful magical treasure.

Magic items in D&D are not, and have never been "magical and wonderous". They are tools. They are really cool and useful tools to be sure. But really, they are nothing more than that, at least as far as the rules of the game are concerned. The quixotic quest many people embark upon to try to change this basic fact without changing the rules in a way that would reflect the change is, in my experience, one of the greatest areas of frustration for many DMs.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I'd like to see that written up in a novel:
..

I'd like to see how it'd play out in any number of computer or console games.

 

[Storm Raven]

If that is the case, then the crafting rules are also set up to stop NPC's selling items, and if that is the case then my justification for suggesting that NPCs would not normally sell the items that they create is made stronger by your evidence - not weaker.

Well, no, because the rules for NPCs are: craft for 1,000 gp and 80 xp, sell for 2,000 gp. In other words, for NPCs, the crafting market is extremely lucrative. I justify this by positing that NPC crafters spend a lot of their time establishing market contacts and so on to allow them to make sure they are able to locate the exact customer for the items they are able to craft, whereas PCs simply don't have this sort of information available. If a PC sets about establishing this sort of information network, they can get better prices for their crafted items too, but establishing and maintaining such a network is sort of a campaign in and of itself.

Your initial premise is wrong (that the rules are the same for PCs and NPCs), and hence, your conclusions about what the rules encourage and don't encourage is wrong.

 

[Celebrim]

But really, they are nothing more than that, at least as far as the rules of the game are concerned.

Really, as far as the rules of the game are concerned, they are nothing more than mathimatical modifiers or occasionally grants to break ingame environmental restrictions - though according to the latest thinking apparantly all of the later 'suck' (and I'm beginning to see where this thinking comes from).

And really, as far as the rules are concerned, all PC's are merely peices of paper with numbers on them.

I suppose the 'quixotic quest' to change this basic fact is one of the greatest areas of frustration for many PC's?

"Stop pretending that your peice of paper is an imaginary person. It's just a freaking peice of paper. No amount of imagination can change that!"

Magic items in D&D are not, and have never been "magical and wonderous".

I bet I could get quotes from each edition's DMG that suggests that the intention is otherwise.

The quixotic quest many people embark upon to try to change this basic fact without changing the rules in a way that would reflect the change is, in my experience, one of the greatest areas of frustration for many DMs.

And the really funny thing about this assertion is that this has never been an area of frustration for me. In fact, creating wierd and wonderful magical items which sometimes become player's treasured possessions has long been one of the things I consider fun about DMing. No, the area of frustration is merely listening to people rant how this is basically impossible and how I can't have done it and so on and so forth, and the smaller area of frustration is the fear of dealing with a whole generation of players raised (IMO quite unnecessarily) to believe the same thing.