Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[Raven Crowking]

It is in the spirit of the game for the players to have fun. If magic shops make the game fun, then they're in the spirit of the game. If some people find that magic shops make the game fun, and other people find that magic shops don't make the game fun, then DMs should choose whether to allow them or not based on what their players want.

Sure.

It is in the spirit of the game for the players to have fun. If sub machine guns, tactical nukes, and starships make the game fun, then they're in the spirit of the game. If some people find that submachine guns, tactical nukes, and starships make the game fun, and other people find that sub machine guns, tactical nukes, and starships don't make the game fun, then DMs should choose whether to allow them or not based on what their players want.

RC

 

[Celebrim]

This, I find, is a pretty weird statement in 3.X. How can it be that in 1e and earlier editions, players could customize their characters using imagination, role-playing, and the limited stat block differences available, yet in 3.X you cannot customise your PC unless you can buy magic items?

Sorry, but I don't buy that for one second.

Nor do I.

To me it sounds like something someone will say because they want to sell books, not because its actually good for the game.

 

[Presto2112]

Nor do I.

To me it sounds like something someone will say because they want to sell books, not because its actually good for the game.

That's the way they've been marketing this book, insisting even that magic items before MIC essentially suck, too.

 

[Celebrim]

It is in the spirit of the game for the players to have fun. If sub machine guns, tactical nukes, and starships make the game fun, then they're in the spirit of the game. If some people find that submachine guns, tactical nukes, and starships make the game fun, and other people find that sub machine guns, tactical nukes, and starships don't make the game fun, then DMs should choose whether to allow them or not based on what their players want.

I think that's a gross oversimplification. It is certainly the spirit of the game for the players to have fun, but in the larger scheme of things the DM is also a person playing the game. Moreover, in a fashion that is fairly unique among games, a greater burden of time and effort falls to a RPG storyteller so that without one, the game doesn't happen. So the DM's notion of what is fun is important too. It's not all important, but its definately important. One can't demand that the DM run a game that he won't find interesting as well.

Secondly, particularly with inexperienced players, they don't necessarily have enough variety of experience to know what will be fun. They might have - especially if they've had bad experiences - very definate opinions about what isn't fun, but they haven't tried enough things to know what they like. Its hard for me to prove that this is true, but one bit of evidence would be a quick browse through the house rules forum to see how many bad ideas are mixed in with the good. These are people who are disatisfied in some fashion, but it isn't necessarily obvious to them how they'd go about fixing the problem and many of the things that they first try are also going to leave them disatisfied.

My guess is that a player that wanted submachine guns and tac nukes introduced to a D&D game would very quickly realize if it was given to them that this wasn't in fact what they wanted. Nukes make for notoriously unfun gaming. In the mean time, they just ruined the game for everyone else at the table and wasted a good deal of the DM's time.

The DM should give the players what they want in a broad sense. If for example he discovers that his players are all tactical players that just love to dungeon crawl, he should minimize the characterization, the setting detail, the simulation aspects of the game and as much as possible get down to what the players want to do. On the other hand, he might find his players are method actors who enjoy highly imaginative play, and who hate dungeon crawling - in which case he should keep the dungeons down to a bare minimum and not try to force the players to do something that they don't find fun. But I think it goes way to far to insist that a DM include this item or that one into the game. A player that wants that much direction over the story, and insists on DMing while wearing a player hat, should probably just run his own game. And if he's not running his own game or willing to (and in my experience capable of), he should probably be more considerate and respectful to the DM.

 

[drothgery]

The page number that that quote comes from would be a good start.

I also wonder if you are misidentifying what is going on. Let me use an example which I think everyone can be familiar. "Game players sell games for half-price. Game store owners sell games for full-price" Does this imply that there is some unfair principle at work which gives a game store owner some unfair advantage over me, or is it rather that the difference comes from the nature of the transaction.

No, the principles at work are

- adventurers are typically skilled in killing things and taking their stuff but unskilled in haggling
- adventurers want to unload their useless (to them) magic items quickly
- adventurers want to buy useful things quickly
- magic shopkeepers are highly skilled in bargaining (they deal in very expensive goods, and so can afford the best)
- magic shopkeepers are willing to to take their time to sell things
- for commissioning items, finding the right NPC crafter takes time and money, and they need to be compensated for their XP
- the game isn't Magic: The Shopping, so extensive rules for role-playing out magical commerce are not provided

 

[Raven Crowking]

I mean, in the real world, brave souls head into caves deep underground and emerge with something precious after risking life and limb. Say, gold.

In D&D, brave souls head into dungeons deep underground and emerge with something precious after risking life and limb. Say, a +1 sword.

Gold is melted down, turned around, transformed into art and jewelry and coinage.

Magic items are researched, distilled, displayed, and re-sold to those who want to buy 'em.

Say, minions of the BBEG.

When the PCs recognize that the wand of fireballs they've been blasted with, the swords used by the Minions of Evil (TM), and the armour the BBEG is wearing as items they sold.....well, that's the moment it all comes together. Right?

 

[howandwhy99]

Maybe I misunderstand how magic shops work, but how can players ask for items they don't know exist or faithfully purchase ones while clueless to their function?

Part of the faulty assumption comes from viewing DMG magic items as mass produced rather than once-made and unique in the world.

I think MerricB has it right. If fantasy is exploration, and finding and testing magic items is part of that discovery, the DM needs to alter or remove all aspects known to the players. That includes monsters, spells, and magic items.

 

[Numion]

Say, minions of the BBEG.

When the PCs recognize that the wand of fireballs they've been blasted with, the swords used by the Minions of Evil (TM), and the armour the BBEG is wearing as items they sold.....well, that's the moment it all comes together. Right?

It's a nice thing as a DM to see the players battling with their inner greed when deciding if they really want to sell that Ultimate Blackguard Ensemble they've just recovered

 

[Raven Crowking]

That's the way they've been marketing this book, insisting even that magic items before MIC essentially suck, too.

Yeah. You should get it, though, because it makes authoritative statements about how you should run your game.

CHEERS!

 

[francisca]

Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

Does the overcustomization and overtwinking of the game wreck the spirit of the game? Does it just become a Mario-Bro's game where you're just trying to get enough "coins?" Can you hear the blinging sound in your campaigns?

jh

Depends on the setting.

Hyboria? Yeah, that's kinda out of place.

FR? Probably OK there.

Homebrew megaworld? On every corner.

Greyhawk? Could go either way. I've run Greyhawk as both uber-magic and low magic grim'n'gritty.

Like most things, it depends on the expectations of the group.