Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[MerricB]

Right you are. I remember reading that. But, also remember, that Gord's dagger was not given to him by the 'almighty' DM so that he could be maxed out. It was available as a plot device.

Err... he sells a magic dagger. He buys another magic dagger. Sounds like 3e, with the abstraction prettied up for the book.

Here's another thought: The players probably shouldn't be reading the DMG during the game to figure out which item is going to best compliment (to use a softer word)

To use a wrong word, actually. You mean "complement". Unless of course, you have the PCs buying magical talking articles that talk like this, "Wow! You are so great! Your hair is nice! Your armour is nice! Hey... you're just nice! I'm glad you bought me!"

I sympathize with the "keep the players out of the books" notion; but I consider it unsustainable.

Outfitting a character with items or other resources that are not normally available in regards to the ongoing campaign is probably what wrecks the spirit of the game.

But what's "normally" available in regards to the ongoing campaign?

The spirit of old-D&D is for the PCs to overcome the challenges the DM puts in their path by any means necessary (subject to alignment, of course!) Not so different from new D&D. There isn't so much an idea of "plot" and "verisimilitude" in old-D&D, not if the tales of Castle Greyhawk are to be believed.

In AD&D, any PC who knew what he was doing would immediately sell any magic item not immediately useful to him, because the gold he got out of it would translate into XP... and generally about 5 to 10 times the XP that he could have gotten by keeping the item. (Case in point: a +1 sword is worth 400 xp if kept, and 2000 xp and gp if sold. That helm of underwater action is 1000 xp if kept, and 10000 xp and gp if sold!

Hmm.

The real trick is to give out magic items that PCs want to keep - and, especially, if you want found items to be special, to create them yourself as a DM. Almost by definition, anything in an official book is no longer special.

Cheers!

 

[Emirikol]

The real trick is to give out magic items that PCs want to keep - and, especially, if you want found items to be special, to create them yourself as a DM. Almost by definition, anything in an official book is no longer special.

My point is that 'because' of magic shops where PC's can pick up anything official on a whim, it's no longer special.

I cannot think of any way, without eliminating or severely restricting magic shops, to "give items that PC's want to keep."

Stoopid shiny silver sword with ritual runes...yea, gonna sell that one....

jh

 

[Corinth]

Magic always was a commodity. Magic is a commodity. Magic always shall be a commodity. Allowing PCs to buy and sell items and enchants is nothing more than making this truth work for you, instead of fighting a futile battle against it. D&D needs a more robust crafting and market system, if anything.

 

[Jer]

I cannot think of any way, without eliminating or severely restricting magic shops, to "give items that PC's want to keep."

This probably counts as "severely restricting", but in my current campaign, "magic shops" are restricted to alchemists (who sell various potions, powders, and ointments) and the occasional "town wizard" who's willing to scribe a scroll for a fee. In other words, "Magic shops" to the extent that they exist in this current campaign only deal in one-shot items. And not everything is available all of the time.

Instead I "give items that the PC's want to keep" by asking my players what kinds of items they want their characters to have and then work those items into the adventures. I also make use of a modified system that I've used for years (back to my Basic/Expert/Companion set days) that allows characters to "upgrade" their magic weapons, armor, and other permanent items by undertaking pilgrimages to "reforge" the items. I make sure in 3e to hand out enough magic to keep the characters roughly where they should be for the CR system to work, but not enough that they feel like they even HAVE enough surplus to want to sell them (even with potions and scrolls, which they conceivably COULD sell, my players have become horrible misers and don't even think of selling them off). Plus, since I only give out "good" items that are upgradable to "better" items, the players don't want to let them out of their sight for fear that recurring villains might get ahold of them.

The easiest way to "give the players items they want to keep" is to find out what your players want and give them opportunities to get them. If a player just wants a big-ass flaming sword, there's no reason not to put one into an adventure when he gets to an appropriate level for the item. Give it a bit of backstory (or let him come up with an appropriate backstory) and he'll jump into a crevasse after it rather than even try to sell it.

 

[grodog]

Not if they're the Bazaar of the Bizarre.

Well-said, S'mon! I'll hazard (ahem) that the one from "Vashanka’s Minion" in the Thieves World Tales from the Vulgar Unicorn anthology would also be appropriate for most games

In Gygax and Kuntz's original Greyhawk campaign there was also the "Mystic Trader":

...run by thieves who offered spurious magic items for sale, meantime doing their best to purloin the real ones possessed by the unsuspecting players. Naturally, this establishment changes locations frequently, and the proprietors altered their appearance with each removal.

 

[Maggan]

Let's see ... my take is that magic shops has been a part of how I have experienced D&D since my introduction to the game in 1984. So for me, magic shops are an integral part of what makes the game D&D.

/M

 

[Doug McCrae]

Magic in D&D has never been mysterious, it's always been reliable technology, since PC wizards and clerics were available. GMs are absolutely right to want mystery, surprise and awe in their games. They are right to want 'magic' - in a certain sense of the word magic. But that's not a +1 sword. A +1 sword is a minor bit of technology. It's reliable, helpful but hardly world shattering.

For the mysterious, the unbuyable, the uncraftable, one should use high end magic - artefacts, spells beyond ninth level, the divine, weird permanent effects that aren't to be found in any rule books. In fact maybe this sort of transcedent stuff shouldn't be called magic at all.

The term 'magic shop' is a bit misleading as it conjures up images of the supermarket. I agree with the 1995 Skip Williams that that is going too far. My take is that the vast majority of purchased magic items are crafted to order. There is little or no stock available. The other thing to note about the 1995 quote is that Skip has obviously changed his mind since then.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The problem of PCs selling most items they find is real and is due to many of the items in the DMG being woefully overpriced. Magic Item Compendium solves this problem.

 

[MerricB]

In Gygax and Kuntz's original Greyhawk campaign there was also the "Mystic Trader":

What's "Horsemen of the Apocalypse", Allan? I don't know that source.

Cheers!

 

[painandgreed]

Well, IMHO, "magic shops" is sort of a strawman. Most games I've played in have never had "magic shops" but rather the DM saying "Ok, you're in a city large enough to have buy magic items or have them made during our downtime, go to it". In a rule set with item creatuion rules, it follows that such things can be bought on comission if nothing else. Assuming some XP flow, even your low level wizard or cleric, selling a few low level potions or scrolls can live in a fairly nice lifestyle wihtout even delaying his advancement much. IIRC, from the exercise I worked out such an NPC selling such items to adventurers could live in a very posh lifestyle without ever delaying his level advancement by more than one year during his lifetime. The same follows for other magic items although there may be issues with having soembody of high enough level to actually make such an item who would be willing to do it, but that's a DM issue, not a rule issue.

If such exchanges do well with the flavor of the game totally, IMHO, depends on the flavor of the game the DM is trying to run. "Low magic D&D games' have been hashed out here to now end, and I think it's fairly reasonable to say that they are possible with the existing ruleset providing the DM pays attention to CR and plans adventures with about as much thought as a DM used in earlier editions before CR. one DM may run a flavor of game where adventurers keep their magic items no matter what it is because they'll never see another like it, while another may play a game much like the Jereg series where magic is a commidity to be bought, sold as needed. It's up to the DM, and whether it ruins the style of play depends on what the DM is trying to produce. Of course, you may not like the style of play such a DM is providing either way, then it's your job to either compromise with the DM on style, suck it up, or find a new DM.