Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[Celebrim]

Not disagreeing with this aspect. I'd also like to point out that the problem with a lot of players, they think they deserve everything in the game to come to them easy and are shocked when the DM puts constraints on them.

A good player says, "Show me a great game." A great player says, "I'm happy to share in your game."

The reason I hate it when these threads come up - and it seems they come up in about 1 in every 100 threads - is that invariably they devolve into name calling threads.

To put a straw man simplification on a subject already prone to straw men, the two camps essentially end up saying, "You are a bad DM/person if you don't have magic shops." and "You are a bad DM/person if you do have magic shops." Anyone that says anything more subtle and interesting than that, as you have just done, tends to be either ignored or else miscategorized as falling into one of the two camps.

I really don't have a problem with magic shops provided that they really fit what the players and the DM both want out of thier games and are added to the setting thoughtfully. What I have a problem with - other than the inevitable personal attacks on my ability as a DM or character as a person that come up as soon as I suggest that I don't have magic shops - is magic shops unreflectively added to or assumed within a setting, often one for which it is wholly unsuited, anachronistic, and even down right illogical in context.

 

[Emirikol]

It cuts both ways. Somehow, I'm getting the suspicion that the OP has long since made up his mind and isn't interested in actually debating the matter.

It's ok. You can use my name. It's Jay. You can also call me names, Ray, Jay, Jaybird, JayDude, Stray, At-Bay, It's-Been-A-Long-Day-Jay (that's my wife's favorite).

I have made up my mind, yes. I'm not presenting this so you can change it. I'm presenting it so I can argue with with everyone about it. Honestly, what fun would this post be without that?

Here's an example:
Post #1: "I dont' think magic items belong in D&D at all."
Post #2: "Jay, you shouldnt' think that way. Magic items do belong in D&D."
Post #3: "Ok, you're right."

Now, look at this thread. How long has it gone? More than three right?

jh

 

[WildWeasel]

Then why frame it as a question? Just throw up a [RANT] tag and go to town.

I for one have no interest in "arguing" with someone that paints those who disagree with thier view as twinks and munchkins right off.

And that's that for me.

 

[Emirikol]

The Magic Item Compendium specifically talks about Magic Item shops and buying magic items. (pages 231-2). It says that, in general, you should allow PCs to buy magic items. One reasoning given is that for many levels its the only way the players can customise their PCs, and is significantly more fun than getting skill points. It also says that large one-stop-shop magic emporiums are unrealistic.

Realism is not one of D&D's strong points.

I totally agree that spazzing out on magic items feels good. It's like morphine. It feels good to have your character totally maxed out.

..but I'm arguing that it wrecks the spirit of the game. Of course, we've never defined what the "spirit of the game" IS? (I thought for sure someone would come up with that point long before the 'strawman' was pulled).

WHat is the spirit of the game in regards to magic item shops?

jh

 

[MerricB]

WHat is the spirit of the game in regards to magic item shops?

It is in the spirit of the game for the players to have fun. If magic shops make the game fun, then they're in the spirit of the game. If some people find that magic shops make the game fun, and other people find that magic shops don't make the game fun, then DMs should choose whether to allow them or not based on what their players want.

Gary Gygax has Gord buying a magic dagger in one of his (TSR) Gord the Rogue books. (Saga of Old City). It's a very special dagger as well - one that can cut through stone or metal.

Sure, you don't have magic emporiums, but you have a shop that sells magic items.

Consider this: Is it in the spirit of the game to only give out magic items that the Wizard can use?

Cheers!

 

[wayne62682]

Wreck the spirit? Not at all. IMO it gives more power to the players and less in the hands of the "Almighty" DM who decides IF you find a magic weapon in a treasure horde as opposed to you being able to GET one.

Besides, the Core rules assume that you can purchase magic items as the baseline for dealing with monsters that require special things to hurt. If you take those out of the game, then you damn sure better compensate it somehow because otherwise you've just imbalanced the game against the players.

 

[drothgery]

I have in my campaign allowed potions and scrolls to be purchased in small amounts from alchemists, churches, and wizards but IMO if you go much beyond that magic items cease to be magical and wonderous, and players cease to feel like they've accomplished something important when finding a powerful magical treasure.

But in D&D worlds, most magic items are not wonderous. 7 of 11 core classes are spellcasters, and one other one is chock-full of quasi-magical special abilities. All but the lowest-level adventurers can afford at least some magical gear. No humanoid that's any threat to adventurers will lack magical gear.

 

[I'm A Banana]

!!!

LOOK OUT, D&D! HERE COME THE MAGIC SHOPS! THEY'RE GONNA GET YOU AND WRECK YOUR SPIRIT!

Seriously, if you're not a fan of allowing PC's to customize themselves to a certain extent by permitting magic shops, whatever, but the "spirit of D&D" is a lot more than the non-existence of magic shops, and it takes a lot more than being able to buy a +1 sword to ruin the "magicness of magic." They exist together quite happily in many campaigns. Maybe not in yours, but that's one of the great things about the customization of D&D, Billy.

 

[Emirikol]

Gary Gygax has Gord buying a magic dagger in one of his (TSR) Gord the Rogue books. (Saga of Old City). It's a very special dagger as well - one that can cut through stone or metal. Sure, you don't have magic emporiums, but you have a shop that sells magic items. Consider this: Is it in the spirit of the game to only give out magic items that the Wizard can use?

Right you are. I remember reading that. But, also remember, that Gord's dagger was not given to him by the 'almighty' DM so that he could be maxed out. It was available as a plot device.

Plot devices would also, IMO, be a reason for having some kind of magic shop then. It may be the "PLOT vs. CUSTOMIZATION" issue that many players have problems with..who later then argue that all characters feel the same. I can't argue that customization isn't fun in many cases, but I can argue that the plot is more important than customization hundreds of times over.

Here's another thought: The players probably shouldn't be reading the DMG during the game to figure out which item is going to best compliment (to use a softer word) their characters..but at the same time, when you have a list of items at a magic shop, you waste valuable gaming time while players look up the various benefits of each of the items and how each of these benefits can be used to their greatest possible degree to find the largest value to the function of the character.

Outfitting a character with items or other resources that are not normally available in regards to the ongoing campaign is probably what wrecks the spirit of the game.

jh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinking
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/maximize




..

 

[I'm A Banana]

But, also remember, that Gord's dagger was not given to him by the 'almighty' DM so that he could be maxed out. It was available as a plot device.

Same thing!

"PLOT vs. CUSTOMIZATION" issue that many players have problems with

This is not an issue for most games! It is all in your head! There is no Vs.!

The players probably shouldn't be reading the DMG during the game to figure out which item is going to best compliment (to use a softer word) their characters..but at the same time, when you have a list of items at a magic shop, you waste valuable gaming time while players look up the various benefits of each of the items and how each of these benefits can be used to their greatest possible degree to find the largest value to the function of the character.

OR, they just say "I buy a +1 sword." And the DM says "Okay, it's about 2500 gp." And the player says "Done!" If you need to look up what a +1 sword does, the game's gonna take a long time either way, so this won't add to it.