Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[Numion]

I noticed. The tables aren't random, btw. They're to be chosen by the DM - thus, a player who buys the DMG doesn't know what the exact powers each artifact has because they're only in his DM's copy.

This is not different from the DM selecting abilities for a magic sword he's going to place in an adventure, in 3E.

 

[MerricB]

This is not different from the DM selecting abilities for a magic sword he's going to place in an adventure, in 3E.

True, although the abilities of artefacts tended to be odder than those of magic swords.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Many of the powers and drawbacks on those charts, though, weren't even options that anyone seriously considered.

Not the point, though.

Check out my post on the last page about Coolness in magic items.

Cheers!

 

[molonel]

Not the point, though.

Check out my post on the last page about Coolness in magic items.

Which is why I went on to say more than that.

Neither randomized charts nor Pick 1 from A, 2 from B and 1 from C situations create a sense of mystery for me, nor in fact are they qualitatively different from a 3rd Edition DM going through the randomized power charts for weapons, for example, and constructing them by picking powers off the charts.

 

[Korgoth]

Well, for one thing, you've had to make a host of changes, which is different from playing D&D as written. Many of the differences are pretty substantial in scope, and have some pretty dubious grounding. Where, for example, do elves in LotR really cast anything resembling a D&D type spell? You can make a limited argument that Elrond cast some sort of divination in The Hobbit, and may have used a healing spell of some sort on Frodo in LotR, and there is the control over the waters of Rivendell's river, but that's it, and those don't fit any known D&D spells with respect to their use (and at least two seem more to be simply "really good skill" rather than "spells"). Galadirel scried using her font, but that seems to have been a property of the font, not a D&D style spell. And you're "everything else goes by the book" leaves a lot undefined. Do ranger's get animal companions? Do paladins exist? Do they have special mounts? Is Aragorn really a plain fighter, or is he some other class? Does he cast spells?

But the real difference is in magic availability. Using the standards set in the various editions of D&D, magic items are just much more common, and much more prominent in D&D than they ever are in LotR. You have to radically alter how magic really works to make D&D work like LotR, unless you are willing to handwave away a lot. And that's why D&D is a poor fit for LotR - the volume of handwaving and customized rules starts to overwhelm the system. At that point, there are a lot of systems that work much, much better for getting a LotR feel into a game session.

Storm Raven, I think you are using some hyperbole here and I really disagree with you. Those Classic/LotR notes I wrote up took me 10 minutes while getting ready for work. That doesn't constitute a "host of changes". I could have the full guidelines for a playable and fun Classic D&D LotR campaign in 2 hours or less. The game would certainly feel like LotR and would work fine. As far as "handwaving"... that's the best part about Classic! If you're a Northman Fighter of Arnor, you get to do Rangerish things if you want, etc. Men of Laketown know about boating, veterans of Ithilien are also Rangerish, men of Rohan are expert riders, etc. I don't need a spreadsheet and 15 full-color supplements to do that stuff. That stuff is Baby Easy.

Elrond? Well he cast Read Magic on Bilbo's map, he cast Remove Curse (or Cure Disease) on Frodo as well as healing magic, and his control over the Anduin is a unique power. However, spells in general are problematic in Middle Earth because they draw the attention of Sauron. And we all know what that means: increased random encounters (or worse)!

Anyway, all of that stuff is a cinch. That's the beauty of pre-3E D&D actually... it can be practically whatever you want it to be.

 

[Jemal]

I can see that it would have mitigated things a bit, but it seems hard to justify from an in-game standpoint. Is the idea that NPCs have more time to build up contacts to whom they can sell? Then what if the PCs befriend an NPC and have him sell things for them? Maybe they could offer him a cut to make it worth his while. Or what if someone sets up a cohort as a merchant and has him sell things?

(Or perhaps the next time they save someone's life... "A reward? Why no, no, I could never accept a reward. As a small favor, however, perhaps you could liquidate these items for me -- I'm so busy with heroic deeds, you see...")

Why can't I sell my used TV back to the store for what it was originally worth?
If you DID set up as a Magic-Item Merchant, then you WOULD have cause to sell stuff for full price, b/c that's what Merchants do, they sell stuff for more than they BUY it for.. Why would someone pay you 2300GP for a +1 sword? Either they're going to sell it again (in which case they'd want to make a profit), or they'd be using it, in which case unless you ARE a merchant, they'd probably go to the merchant b/c he's more liable, what with running a business... Unless you sell your item for a discount.

Also, the rule exists for Game Balance reasons... treasure hordes can give significantly more magical items than the 'average' table suggests for GP value. If the PC's keep them, then it's a bit more balanced b/c A)they didn't decide which items they got, and B) The DM DID, meaning he didn't give them anything that would wreck the campaign.. If the PC's SELL stuff, then they're getting less worth in order to decide what that worth IS.
remembe,r Money changers charge you to change Gold into Silver..

 

[FireLance]

That's the beauty of pre-3E D&D actually... it can be practically whatever you want it to be.

Fixed it for, well, most of the rest of us, I guess.

 

[Thurbane]

So you assume that because the DM is not giving out the "by-the-book" wealth that he is therefore and inept Killer DM?

I see this assumption again and again in these type of threads.

No credit is given that any DM can run an effective and balanced campaign unless he slavishly follows WBL/CR formulas.

From my own personal experience of 20+ years, in several different editions, the DMs I've played with have all been able to step beyond RAW to varying degrees and still keep the game fun and balanced...but then, all of the games I've been involved in were played for all involved to have fun, not as some sort of DM vs. players arms race...

 

[MerricB]

I see this assumption again and again in these type of threads.

No credit is given that any DM can run an effective and balanced campaign unless he slavishly follows WBL/CR formulas.

Hmm... I think it far more likely in this thread you're seeing the assumption that if you slavishly follow the EL/CR formulas, but give out much less treasure than average, then your PCs are going to run into trouble.

A DM who realises that giving out fewer powerful magic items means that some monsters will be tougher than normal is fine.

Inexperienced DMs are more likely to need the EL/CR and WBL guidelines than experienced DMs, although experienced DMs may find those guidelines very useful.

Cheers!

 

[FireLance]

I see this assumption again and again in these type of threads.

No credit is given that any DM can run an effective and balanced campaign unless he slavishly follows WBL/CR formulas.

It's an often misinterpreted complaint. It is sometimes due to a clash of playing styles - players who want a standard wealth game and a DM who wants to run a low-magic or low-wealth game - but it does sometimes have a real basis, when it is directed at a DM who does not take into account the PCs' lower wealth when designing challenges for them.

It is not always the players' fault when there are problems in a gaming group. DMs are not all paragons of excellence and creative geniuses who are forced to cripple their wondrous and sublime visions because of petty, demanding and ungrateful powergaming munchkins. DMs can be stupid, incompetent, arrogant, and blind to their own faults, too.