Do negative levels reduce caster level?

[Thanee]

Consider an item - we'll call it the Rod of Wintry Snows - that, when held, gave you a benefit similar to the Chaos domain - "cast [Cold] spells at +1 caster level" - and a penalty using similar language - "cast [Fire] spells at -1 caster level."

While holding the rod, can a 5th-level wizard cast Fireball?

Of course, since the wizard's caster level is 5.

But that is, again, not the question.

The question is, whether the wizard's caster level is not 5, but 3, if 2 negative levels are sustained, in which case the casting of Fireball would be no longer possible.

The question boils down to, whether the wizard's caster level is calculated out of the wizard's level, or not.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, then, what is the difference between the item and a negative level, Thanee? (Other than the fact that the item is specific to certain spells and the negative level would appear to impact all of them.)

 

[IanB]

Well, then, what is the difference between the item and a negative level, Thanee? (Other than the fact that the item is specific to certain spells and the negative level would appear to impact all of them.)

I don't think making up penalties that don't exist in the game to try and figure out the answer to a rules question is the right direction to approach things. There's no right way to answer the question you've proposed, because there's no rule for that one either.

(Now is when you point me to an item that does give a 'you cast at -1 caster level' penalty and I look vaguely embarrassed.)

I don't really have an opinion on the actual question at hand, but this doesn't look like good methodology to me.

 

[Scion]

(Now is when you point me to an item that does give a 'you cast at -1 caster level' penalty and I look vaguely embarrassed.)

Not exactly what you are looking for, but how about an item that gives you a negative level? lol

 

[Thanee]

Well, then, what is the difference between the item and a negative level, Thanee?

This here:

-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

And the question is... is this just 'casts at -1 caster level', like the item, or not?

Your hypothetic item comparison only compares to the answer "yes", not to the actual question.

Obviously, your answer to this question would be "yes, it is.", since your example only covers that answer, and not the "no" side of things.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Is this discussion moving towards what should be or what the RAW says?

Well, can you give a non-ambiguous answer by the RAW?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Infiniti2000]

Of course, since the wizard's caster level is 5.

But that is, again, not the question.

Ah, but it is.

The question is, whether the wizard's caster level is not 5, but 3, if 2 negative levels are sustained, in which case the casting of Fireball would be no longer possible.

A wizard 3 with one negative level casts continual flame as a 3rd level wizard. The caster level is never used for a calculation or die roll, so the negative level never even plays a factor. This means that the wizard 3 can cast continual flame, a 2nd-level wizard spell. Agreed?

The same wizard casts blur as a 3rd level wizard. However, the duration (once cast) is a calculation using the caster level and therefore the duration is 1 minute per level where level=2.

This example should be easier to follow because in using continual flame, I can remove all calculations and die rolls.

 

[Artoomis]

Ah, but it is.

A wizard 3 with one negative level casts

continual flame as a 3rd level wizard. The caster level is never used for a calculation or die roll, so the negative level never even plays a factor. This means that the wizard 3 can cast continual flame, a 2nd-level wizard spell. Agreed?

The same wizard casts blur as a 3rd level wizard. However, the duration (once cast) is a calculation using the caster level and therefore the duration is 1 minute per level where level=2.

This example should be easier to follow because in using continual flame, I can remove all calculations and die rolls.

Exactly right. The caster level is reduced, but only if some calculation (like duration or Dispel Magic) is involved. Reducing the caster level has no effect on which spells may be cast.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Reducing the caster level has no effect on which spells may be cast.

Not to be pedantic, but this is specifically because the caster level is not reduced when determining which spells may be cast or even as spells are cast. Tricky, no?

 

[Thanee]

It's not like I don't agree with that, it's what I think as well... but how can be explained then, that...

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

Which certainly implies, that with a caster level below 3 you cannot cast 2nd level spells at all, since what else could the middle part possibly mean.


And then this part here...

A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

Why is this not a calculation using the character's level?

Bye
Thanee