Do negative levels reduce caster level?

[irdeggman]

Well, can you give a non-ambiguous answer by the RAW?

Bye
Thanee

I thought we had.

ENERGY DRAIN AND NEGATIVE LEVELS
Some horrible creatures, especially undead monsters, possess a fearsome supernatural ability to drain levels from those they strike in combat. The creature making an energy drain attack draws a portion of its victim’s life force from her. Most energy drain attacks require a successful melee attack roll—mere physical contact is not enough. Each successful energy drain attack bestows one or more negative levels on the opponent. A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained.

–1 on all skill checks and ability checks.

–1 on attack rolls and saving throws.

–5 hit points.

–1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

Negative levels remain for 24 hours or until removed with a spell, such as restoration. After 24 hours, the afflicted creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 attacker’s HD + attacker’s Cha modifier). (The DC is provided in the attacker’s description.) If the saving throw succeeds, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. The afflicted creature makes a separate saving throw for each negative level it has gained. If the save fails, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one.

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight. A creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect).

I had laid out the spell results in a table earlier for a 20th level wizard with a 20 Int that suffers 10 negative levels..

This was per the exact wording of the RAW.

The RAW says that the -1 CL is for "whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation". {It doesn't say for "all" purposes only for those specified.}

It then goes on to clarify that the she loses her highest level currently available spell. It then goes on to further clarify that "In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level".

I just fail to see how this is at all unclear. It only becomes unclear when people appear to be reading more into it than it says.

 

[Thanee]

See my above post (last post on first page), which has the quotes I am speaking of.

Bye
Thanee

 

[irdeggman]

See my above post (last post on first page), which has the quotes I am speaking of.

Bye
Thanee

It's not like I don't agree with that, it's what I think as well... but how can be explained then, that...

Quote:
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.


Which certainly implies, that with a caster level below 3 you cannot cast 2nd level spells at all, since what else could the middle part possibly mean.


And then this part here...

Quote:
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.


Why is this not a calculation using the character's level?

Interesting overall issue but really does not apply to the case in point since it is specific under what conditions it applies and what happens under those conditions. What I mean is that you are raising interesting questions about what does Caster Level mean overall, but in the case of negative levels the effects are laid out.


–1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

But the next bit of text in the section you are quoting also helps to clarify it’s intent.

In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

Which seems to lay out the things that are affected by Caster Level as the text refers to it.

Now the overall questions you are raising with the quotes seem to be able to be answered, at least to me, by reading the text over again.

For example.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

Now this specifies that essentially a wizard can’t cast a 3d6 fireball since he must be fifth level in order to cast it which gives him an effect of 5d6 since it is 1d6 per level max of 10d10.

I had not noticed this bit of information before but now that I have . . .

A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

No issue hear since there is the modifier “for most spellcasting characters” when refereeing to a spell’s power depending on its caster level. Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards have a CL equal to character level, while for example Paladins and Rangers have a CL as follows “Through 3rd level, a paladin (ranger)has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her paladin (ranger) level.” Now when something affects this caster level then it changes, like say a negative level which lowers it.


Need to note that the effect for a negative level specifically does not say it affects Caster Level but it lowers the “effective level” whenever character level is used for die rolls or calculations.

The next section (about loses spells) specifically addresses spell casters. If the lowers effective level was supposed to mean lowers caster level then the next modifier wouldn’t have been needed since the rules would already cover it by preventing casting of spells when CL is lowered below the minimum necessary to cast a spell. Since this is a special condition the rules for the specific case over rule the general rule when they conflict. So a fifth level wizard with a negative level could in fact cast a 4d6 fireball because the negative level rule supercedes the general Caster Level one.

Still an interesting point and it does require some comparision reading between the different sections of RAW in order to have it make sense.

 

[TheGogmagog]

It seems to me, that the level drain is only inteded to drain 1 of the highest spell slots per level drained. However, by the separate rule that you can't cast a spell at a lower power than the level required to cast the spell, you also can't cast spells higher than your effective level would allow.

You might not like it, it might not make sense, but to me it seems to be RAW.

The 5th level wizard, can't chose to cast a 4d6 fireball, or a haste spell that lasts 4 rounds instead of 5. If that caster is drained 1 level, he can't cast any spell that uses caster level as a measure of power. At that point you can't cast any 3rd level spells, except those that don't have level based damage, duration, range, or SR. Something like true strike comes to mind, say you have a dual class Fighter 1/Wizard 1 drained 1 caster level. Perhaps the swift spells might also be safe.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Since this is a special condition the rules for the specific case over rule the general rule when they conflict. So a fifth level wizard with a negative level could in fact cast a 4d6 fireball because the negative level rule supercedes the general Caster Level one.

Still an interesting point and it does require some comparision reading between the different sections of RAW in order to have it make sense.

Hmm, I hadn't considered that the specific case would supercede the general one when there is a contradiction.

Now I'm back on the fence.

Personally, I don't like the idea of draining a 20th level caster down to 5th level, only to have him turn around and blast me with a disintegrate. I may be biased, but whether it's core or the FAQ, when one rule contradicts another rule without acknowleging the contradiction, I tend to think it's an oversight.

 

[FEADIN]

Hmm, I hadn't considered that the specific case would supercede the general one when there is a contradiction.

Now I'm back on the fence.

Personally, I don't like the idea of draining a 20th level caster down to 5th level, only to have him turn around and blast me with a disintegrate. I may be biased, but whether it's core or the FAQ, when one rule contradicts another rule without acknowleging the contradiction, I tend to think it's an oversight.

But only for 10d6 maximum damage ...

 

[FEADIN]

It seems to me, that the level drain is only inteded to drain 1 of the highest spell slots per level drained. However, by the separate rule that you can't cast a spell at a lower power than the level required to cast the spell, you also can't cast spells higher than your effective level would allow.

You might not like it, it might not make sense, but to me it seems to be RAW.

The 5th level wizard, can't chose to cast a 4d6 fireball, or a haste spell that lasts 4 rounds instead of 5. If that caster is drained 1 level, he can't cast any spell that uses caster level as a measure of power. At that point you can't cast any 3rd level spells, except those that don't have level based damage, duration, range, or SR. Something like true strike comes to mind, say you have a dual class Fighter 1/Wizard 1 drained 1 caster level. Perhaps the swift spells might also be safe.

We are speaking of negative levels, not drained levels, no problem for these.
But you can suppose that a 1st level wizard with only one spell per day on the table cannot cast a spell if he gets one negative level...but I think that he has a bonus spell so he casts it at 0 level power.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But you can suppose that a 1st level wizard with only one spell per day on the table cannot cast a spell if he gets one negative level...but I think that he has a bonus spell so he casts it at 0 level power.

A 1st-level wizard with a negative level has more to worry about than how much damage his burning hands spell does ...

 

[irdeggman]

Here is another way to look at what happens with negative levels.
The text specifies exactly what happens with negative level.

Things (other than spellcasting effects) that occur are:

–1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
–1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
–5 hit points.

Now this does not state that their ability scores are lowered but that any ability checks are at –1 (it would on average take a –2 to an ability score to yield this effect).

-1 on all attack rolls and saving throws.

Very few classes function in this linear method and only warrior types get a good BAB progression. A wizard losing –1 on attack rolls is like losing 3 class levels.

Same thing for saving throws.

-5 to hit points.

A wizard with no Constitution bonus would lose more hit points than he can gain in a level while only fighters and paladins would lose an average amount. Barbarians would lose less than an average roll and bards, rangers, clerics, druids and rogues would lose greater than average.


We need to read exactly what the text says and not try to read more into it than is there otherwise we’ll end up in a never-ending discussion.

 

[irdeggman]

A 1st-level wizard with a negative level has more to worry about than how much damage his burning hands spell does ...

Right he's dead.

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight. A creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect).