Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

[Umbran]

It is early and I am too tired to try to rephrase it. But like I said before, I don't think the evil orc trope, or evil orcs in fantasy RPGs are racist. And I don' think the tie to colonialism is super obvious.

I think you've been clear about that. The issue isn't that you are unclear. The issue is that several folks here think you are *simply wrong*.

And... so... what do you want?

My main contention was taking a fine tooth comb to this stuff, in my view, doesn't really help...

Again, I think you've been clear. The issue here isn't that you are unclear, but that folks *do not agree with your points*.

So again - Every communication has some (occasionally implicit) purpose, and some intended audience. Who are you writing to, and why?

 

[Bedrockgames]

So again - Every communication has some (occasionally implicit) purpose, and some intended audience. Who are you writing to, and why?

This is the kind of response i am talking about. I've just made a promise to myself due to things I have seen happen online in the past several years, to always give my honest opinion, whether most people in a thread hold the view or not (particularly in the gaming community because I value the gaming community). My purpose is simply to push back on some of the assumptions in the thread, because I don't think it is leading to a good place (even though I think it is very well intended). We can have disagreements about this stuff. I realize there is a prevailing view on the thread, that doesn't mean it is correct. I am simply trying to give my take on the OP.

I can totally accept people don't agree with my points. I think good people can have honest disagreements about what all this means. And I think there have been a number of posters on this thread I've had good exchanges with in that respect. But I do think some of the posters are seeing things in my posts that simply are not there. It is one thing to disagree with my points. It is another thing to characterize them in a way that doesn't really match what I am saying or imply things about my character because I take a slightly different view than you about media tropes. Again we are talking about subjective reactions to media tropes, and I'm getting responses that are things like quoting Martin Luther King Jr.'s invocation of White Moderates. I just find some of these reactions a bit odd.

 

[Gradine]

What do you think is the best approach? Get rid of "Always Chaotic Evil" races?

Are Always-CE Undead ok? How about demons?

I'm not joking; I am increasingly inclined to think RPGs can do without orcs and suchlike.

I'm a few days late here, but can I introduce you to Eberron?

Note that in Eberron there are always-evil creatures, but they are entirely immortal and/or supernatural/extraplanar in nature (undead, fiends, celestials, aberrations, etc.). But this is only because they technically lack the free will afforded mortal races (including monstrous races, such as medusas, harpies, etc.)

Note that in Eberron even these creatures can change their alignment, but doing so fundamentally changes their nature; ie, a fallen angel becoming a radiant idol.

Note that the mortal monstrous races, as depicted in Eberron, are still seen as fundamentally different from the rest of civilization; they have different values, different cultures, different powers; but there is nothing that compels to them evil and most have at least a few members living peacefully in the setting's largest metropolis.

 

[sd_jasper]

So (shifting gears a bit here), what do folks here think about the Reavers from Firefly / Serenity? The whole setting of this show and movie has many parallels of the American West (and post-Civil War reconstruction... which makes our "heroes" confederates... but that's another story).

The reavers are the "savages at the edge of space". What did our heroes of western drama fight at the edge of the frontier? The native peoples, a.k.a (in western period fiction) "Indians". So are reavers a racial stereotype? Is Joss Wheaton a racist?

My take is, no he is not. I do think old-west stories do have a one-sided if not right out racists view of native peoples. But I don't think that transforming those stories into a new format... using the narrative trope is the same as disparaging the people today.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Darth Solo]

This goes to what a "savage" is. Orcs have historically, within the hobby, been described as "monsters". Aka "savage". Orcs are experience points for players; evil monsters that need to be put down.

I've never identified Orcs as Native-Americans or African-Americans because both peoples were more civil than war-like Orcs. The whole "colonisation" thing was mostly SJW propaganda.

I ran "black" PCs back in the early 80's, because I'm "black/African-American". Killing Orcs was slaying monsters. Just that. Based in everything I've read from or by E.G. Gygax, he was no racist. But, I have noticed SJWs try and make him that.

D&D was once "human-centric" where the human colonies battled demi-human (Orc, Goblin, Drow, ECT.) advancement. Orcs were one monster group among many.

So as was posted, this thread can be a trap of a sort where people try to communicate Orcs as "non-monster" giving them status accordant to "ethnic minority", but at least for me, monsters are not equivalent to humanity. Again, an Orc has never been more than player X.P.

Speaking of “as was posted”, another poster has already been booted from this thread and another nearly so for forgetting the ENWorld’s ToS note that “SJW” and similarly loaded politicized name-calling is not acceptable here. Disagree freely, but don’t be disagreeable. Don’t make that mistake again.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

While there are undeniable echoes with the American frontier and its lore, JW successfully and completely subverts the potentially racist tropes with the ultimate reveal that the Reavers were created by experimental behavioral modification science gone horribly wrong.

[video=youtube;5PM8VcTCPqQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PM8VcTCPqQ[/video]

 

[Darth Solo]

I love my hobby. I've spent thousands of dollars and years of work in it. My thing is protecting it from people who want to tear it down, and I run into moderators who don't have that same motivation.

So within the censored language of THIS forum, Orcs are in the Monster Manual. They gave an X.P. value. Yes, you can kill them. The Orc Cleric in the party? Work with him/her/it. I, as GM, have had PCs kill each other and ask for X.P.

These forums are fine sounding boards, but there will always be a "level of disconnect" between what sounds good on a forum & what really happened in-game. Guess that's the essence of having moderators.

But, sometimes moderation censors reality. I've been chatting online long enough to get that. I appreciate the Mods, when they represent the RPG hobby.

 

[darkbard]

Again we are talking about subjective reactions to media tropes, and I'm getting responses that are things like quoting Martin Luther King Jr.'s invocation of White Moderates. I just find some of these reactions a bit odd.

You find it odd that, in a thread analyzing the parallels between orcs and colonialist progaganda with regard to racial stereotyping, you make repeated calls for moderation and I posted one of the most famous statements in history about calls for moderation in the face of racial injustice?

 

[sd_jasper]

While there are undeniable echoes with the American frontier and its lore, JW successfully and completely subverts the potentially racist tropes with the ultimate reveal that the Reavers were created by experimental behavioral modification science gone horribly wrong.

I agree. And, shifting back to the orcs, they were created from tortured/corrupted elves. But both still fill the literary trope of "savage" or "barbarian". So I think this is a pretty good example to compare to.