Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Currently, Boston, MA. Originally, Long Island, suburbs of NYC.

Truly, a stranger from a strange land.

[HenryCho]Hey, Piratecat lives in Boston as I recall. You should go hang out with him![/HenryCho]

 

[pemerton]

I'm going to tell you, no one else ever gets questioned like this.

Hussar, thanks for this post. I just wanted to say that, in Australia, being Black (especially obviously non-Indigenous Black) or of apparent South Asian heritage will also trigger questions, in exactly the way you describe. And the resuting issues of insult and tiresomeness and a sense of exclusion/alienation are all as you describe.

 

[pemerton]

which Monster Manual entry makes you think that Orcs are intended to stand for "a particular racial stereotype"?

This was already answered by [MENTION=21169]Doug McCrae[/MENTION] before you joined the thread: the AD&D rules have orcs who live in "tribes" and have "witch doctors". It's a pulp-y conception of generic "natives".

 

[Riley37]

I don't know what sort of person you are under the impression I am. But I can assure you, you are barking up the wrong tree here.

I was under the impression that you are deeply concerned - even afraid - about what might happen if anyone closely examines orcs in gaming for parallels with colonialist propaganda. You've expressed concerns that after such examination, we might set standards, and then impose those standards on others.

Well, this is what happens: We note the overlap between LotR orcs (also known as goblins) and traits associated mostly with Asian or Turkik populations. We note the overlap between WotC orcs and common American stereotypes of black people. We encourage mindful compassion about how those stereotypes might feel to players (and children) with relevant ancestry. THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS. That's what you've been SO worried about.

After all those posts of concern, you apparently agreed with us (or at least me and Danny), *all along*, about how to apply those principles in the specific scenarios which I described. I guess it wasn't so bad after all?

There's a possibility that one individual will say something along the lines of "you shouldn't play D&D, you should play some less racist TRPG." That person will be alone in their outlier position; the rest of us won't join that person to dog-pile you. (If you WANT a TRPG with fewer racist images in its text and illustrations, then you can start a new thread with that question, and I'd happily suggest some. In the meantime, if you're happy with D&D, then I'm not gonna second-guess your gaming preferences, not even if you play the edition which I hate.)

 

[Sadras]

I don't even know why you are bringing this up, why would I even suggest that to Danny if he were at my table?

Agree, if Danny is at your table, the only question that's relevant is if it's his turn to cater because then you're in for a treat.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I want to point out that in this long and meandering thread about RW stereotypes being used in genre literature and the games inspired by it, I think we should all remember Hanlon’s Razor:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

That’s the original formulation, but in this case, I doubt “stupidity “ is the actual foible in question. Instead, maybe it is “ignorance”, in the nonjudgmental sense of “being uninformed” about something- a gap in awareness. Perhaps even “indifference”.

IOW, I don’t see any evidence of an intent to denigrate on the part of most of the figures discussed herin. I honestly don’t think anyone’s calling JRRT, EGG, (most) other authors and game designers, or any fellow ENWorlders posting here as being actual racists. I think some if not most of the pushback seen here is coming from honest disbelief or lack of information, not genuine antagonism. I know I really haven’t felt anything like that much here.

 

[Hussar]

This was already answered by [MENTION=21169]Doug McCrae[/MENTION] before you joined the thread: the AD&D rules have orcs who live in "tribes" and have "witch doctors". It's a pulp-y conception of generic "natives".

Let's not forget that half-orcs are described as "mongrels" (a term which pointedly doesn't apply to half-elves).

Is it extreme or blatant or a massive problem? Nope. It really isn't. But, it is something that should be, and I believe has been, addressed. By creating a more nuanced view of orcs - giving them an actual culture, history, whatnot, and moving away from the earlier tropes of orcs, it does help. Someone mentioned earlier that modules now rarely feature (at least from WotC) the whole "Defend the border colony from the rampaging xxxx". It's a lot more evil cults and whatnot.

I want to point out that in this long and meandering thread about RW stereotypes being used in genre literature and the games inspired by it, I think we should all remember Hanlon’s Razor:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

That’s the original formulation, but in this case, I doubt “stupidity “ is the actual foible in question. Instead, maybe it is “ignorance”, in the nonjudgmental sense of “being uninformed” about something- a gap in awareness. Perhaps even “indifference”.

IOW, I don’t see any evidence of an intent to denigrate on the part of most of the figures discussed herin. I honestly don’t think anyone’s calling JRRT, EGG, (most) other authors and game designers, or any fellow ENWorlders posting here as being actual racists. I think some if not most of the pushback seen here is coming from honest disbelief or lack of information, not genuine antagonism. I know I really haven’t felt anything like that much here.

QFT. Totally this.

Not to bang the drum here, but, it is one of the advantages of divorcing the work from the creator. By saying, "This in such and such work is objectionable" I'm, in no way, passing any judgment on the creator. OTOH, if you insist that the creator and the work are indelibly linked, then anything that someone finds objectionable is automatically casting shade on the creator and we have to dive down the rabbit hole of intent.

Far simpler to just look at the work itself, in context, rather than try to guess what's in someone's mind.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don’t divorce the artist from the work. I think artistic intent matters, even if it isn’t necessarily the whole story.

But I CAN divorce my feelings about the creators from my feelings about the merits of their creations. Regardless of how I feel about the human beings that made them, I can still enjoy my HPL Mythos stories, listen to my Bill Cosby and Michael Jackson albums. Etc.

 

[Riley37]

I honestly don’t think anyone’s calling JRRT, EGG, (most) other authors and game designers, or any fellow ENWorlders posting here as being actual racists. I think some if not most of the pushback seen here is coming from honest disbelief or lack of information, not genuine antagonism.

I agree in spirit. If by "racist" you mean someone with conscious, intentional malice, then I agree in detail. No one here is taking a position along the lines of "the only good Eloi is a dead Eloi".

I have what might be an oddball understanding on this topic. If you asked me "Riley, are you honest or dishonest?" then my answer is somewhere in between; maybe 90% honesty? Same for laziness... and same for racism; I cannot claim to have *never* made a racist assumption, or never acted on bias. I try to cultivate and improve my honesty, and I try to cultivate and improve my non-racism (into active anti-racism). So if you asked me whether I'm racist... I would not give a simple, binary, clear-cut "no". (shrug) There are 206 bones in the adult human body, and if my left clavicle is racist, then that's less than 1% but I still fail the "not a racist bone in his body" test.

(If I arrived in Oz, and the Munchkins asked me whether I was a Good Witch or a Bad Witch: in Oz, good witches are beautiful and bad witches are ugly, so the answer should be obvious.)

 

[Derren]

This was already answered by [MENTION=21169]Doug McCrae[/MENTION] before you joined the thread: the AD&D rules have orcs who live in "tribes" and have "witch doctors". It's a pulp-y conception of generic "natives".

So you have to go back 40 years and 3 editions to find something to support your theory.
And why is this relevant today? Seems it has already been corrected.