Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

[S'mon]

However, even Thule kinda suffers under unspoken racism. In a setting that is purportedly real world Greenland (however, it's fantasy from just before the last Ice Age), every human civilization on the island save one is white, European. There is one invader group that is black, but, everyone else is European.

Not a single native group to be found. It was something that did stand out to me running the setting.

And, I say this as a huge, gushing fanboy of the setting. It really is fantastic and I love it to pieces. There's a six foot map of Thule hanging above my computer as I type this. So, yeah, the setting is great.

Does that make Thule racist? No, of course not. But, would it have been better for having included a couple of native groups - maybe a mythological Inuit people, perhaps? I think so.

The physical description of the Kalay is east-Asian, though this doesn't really get reflected in the art.

There's no indication of whether the Daray (generic European) Nimothans (Scandinavian) or Kalay(east-Asian) are more or less native, ie who arrived first - the Serpentmen presumably arrived before any of them. The Lomari and Atlanteans are noted as arriving more recently, with the African-descended Lomari the most recent arrivals, as you note.

IRL the Inuit only reached the area very recently, wiping out the Paleo-Eskimos, and possibly
wiping out the Greenland Norse, though the latter is uncertain. Thule is set in a mythical past of
course, but IRL 25,000* years ago most modern population groups didn't exist yet. Caucasians & east-Asians were only starting to diverge as the last Glacial Maximum made central-north Asia uninhabitable.

Anyway my point was that racial conflict in the setting is not Good Race vs Evil Race, and I rather like that. It's also a relatively minor theme compared to typical Tolkienesque Orcs-vs-Elves D&D.

*I settled on 25,000 years ago since that was the last time there was a significant climate cooling so it seemed to make the most sense for when Thule becomes glaciated, 25,000-22,000 years BP. IRL Greenland was last ice-free more like 75,000 years ago, from what I recall, but that seemed too early, while setting it at the end of the last Ice Age ca 12,000 years ago seemed too recent and not fitting the glaciation theme.

 

[S'mon]

My orcs are deliberately based more on Star Trek Klingons than anything else. Klingons were initially based on the USSR. My orcs are still inherently and reliably evil. So how racist am I?

I think Hobgoblins have taken over the Klingon role in recent years!

 

[pemerton]

he's substantially more complicated than your statistical estimation of him

This is true of nearly everyone.

which suggests, to me, that his goal in writing an alternative mythology based on northern european culture wasn't in pursuit of racist goals

And no one has suggested otherwise in this thread. I certainly have not said anything about JRRT's intentions except that I'm indifferent to them.

I did conjecture some beliefs/attitudes that JRRT likely held, given his social, historical, cultural etc context. I didn't and don't conjecture that these shaped his intentions in writing his book. I did and continue to conjecture that these are likely to help explain his use of racist tropes to help present orcs, southerners etc as evil.

 

[Zardnaar]

Never read LOTR tried a few times just couldn't get into it.

My Orcs are just Orcs. I rarely use real life cultures in my games. If I do I usually base them on an organization. Elves might be imperialist based on the East India Company. A country might be based on the Teutonic Knights. Most players won't recognise the tie in or I steal from obscure sources.

 

[S'mon]

I think the majority view is that it's best not to have natural races/species who are Always Chaotic Evil (or Always Lawful Good?) and players should go by what is actually a threat, not by labels.
So basically more like Runequest.

I think this supports my view that having Good and Evil Alignments in D&D is not really a good thing either. I've always thought it worked better to stick with Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic for Moorcock/Anderson type settings, and the majority of settings can happily do without Alignment entirely.

 

[S'mon]

Having seen this video and lived in Japan and Korea most of my adult life, it does resonate very, very strongly. The fetishism of asian people (particularly women) is a real thing and it's deeply, deeply embedded in racist attitudes. It really is offensive as all get out.

I have a friend who could be described as having an east-Asian fetish, Japan specifically (Weaboo, I think the term is). I don't think there is a racist bone in her body, and she is highly respectful of Japanese culture.

 

[pemerton]

So basically more like Runequest.

This is often the best path!

 

[Hussar]

I have a friend who could be described as having an east-Asian fetish, Japan specifically (Weaboo, I think the term is). I don't think there is a racist bone in her body, and she is highly respectful of Japanese culture.

There's more to it than that though. Even [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION], who I believe is black, when asked where is he from, would not be repeatedly questioned when he answered New Orleans. No one else seems to get this blank stare of disbelief as when an Asian American or Asian Canadian states that they are Canadian. Like I said, that video resonates really, really well. It's an ongoing thing and it happens all the time.

I mean, sure, people in Canada have asked me where I'm from. But, when I say Toronto, they don't then keep asking. Have you ever had complete strangers question you on your nationality? I've seen it repeatedly. And it only ever seems to happen to people of Asian decent.

It really is offensive as hell. If you feel the need to question someone's nationality, remember, that person may very well have been questioned fifteen times previously that week and just might not appreciate the sixteenth time.

Again, I don't give a fetid dingo's kidney about your friends. Really, really don't. I'm telling you, in no uncertain terms, people of (particularly East Asian) decent get questioned on their nationality very, very often. It's almost like there's a strain of white people that cannot fathom that someone's ancestors came from Japan or China and emigrated to America a hundred years ago or more.

 

[Aldarc]

Why do you only limit it to Europe? This is entirely your choice.
The Chinese (and Koreans) had "barbarians in the north" as had the Japanese which did not treat the Ainu pretty well. Not to mention that the Mongols were not only a threat to Europeans but also to many Asian and Middle Eastern nations. After all who ended the period of Islamic scientific leadership by razing Baghdad? It wasn't the Europeans. And there were also the tribes of Timur who conquered large territories. And why couldn't orcs symbolize Vikings?

So as I said, the barbarian raider stereotype existed around the world in all cultures and has nothing specifically to do with European colonialism. And even if you want to limit it European history you still need to explain why orcs would be related to the colonial era of Europe instead of those times when Europe was attacked by tribal societies (Mongols, Huns, Germanics, Turkish tribes, Vikings, ...)

Because the conceptual history of orcs in Euro-American media have connections to racist Euro-American colonial imagery, terms, and cognitive associations of various non-European groups from the colonial era, particularly Asia and Africa. The answer does not even require that we engage in any Whataboutism like the above.

 

[S'mon]

I'm telling you, in no uncertain terms, people of (particularly East Asian) decent get questioned on their nationality very, very often. It's almost like there's a strain of white people that cannot fathom that someone's ancestors came from Japan or China and emigrated to America a hundred years ago or more.

Would you find "What's your ethnicity?" less offensive than "Where are you from?"

You can advocate for "Don't ask don't tell" and for offence-taking all you like, but it's still a bad idea IMO.