Do prestige classes curb creativity?

[The Shaman]

A creative player thinks of a character concept such as "mage who uses a lot of fire" or "big brute warrior who goes berserk", then is able to create such a character with just the core rules (or little more), and to add the flavor with roleplay and description. There is not much creativity in browsing a thousands pages until you find something ready for you.

To make an example about how this can happen in someone's game. We had a player last year who wanted to make some demon hunter, and the kind of player that buys almost every book... He was mad because he couldn't find "a decent demon hunter" in all his books (he didn't want to use e.g. the Knight of the Chalice because he didn't like some features or maybe didn't have some prerequisites - I don't remember), until the DM pointed out that he could just use the Hunter of the Dead, slightly modified, but the player was suspicious of this option and at the end he looked for a different concept.

...

Just for laughs... how many of us have played with LEGO when we were kids? It used to a game with incredible creativity potential. But in years, they added more and more "pre-made" bricks (those that looked already like a finished shape): in early days you took a stick-brick and turn it into a sword, or two long+thin+flat bricks and turn them into skies, but now kids have the ready shapes for both. When you have everything ready, creativity isn't exactly helped...

Interesting analogy, Li Shenron - quoted for emphasis.

...I remember amusing myself for hours sailing around the bay pretending to be a pirate, don't do that anymore (well maybe once or twice really really quietly to myself).

Me too, until that thing with the Coast Guard and the restraining order from the yacht club...YARR, THAR BE WENCHES ABOARD, YARRR!

 

[DonTadow]

I really fail to see how this is any different from rolling that 1 in 6 in earlier editions of D&D (or 2 in 6 if you're an elf). The mechanic has changed a little in format but the basic idea is the same. Why is the effect of 3E any different?
Plus, I'd probably assume that taking 20 would entail kicking through the straw since it is as thorough a search as the PCs are capable of. I think you had constructed the search in such a way that you were expecting the particular magic words "We move aside the straw" and the players didn't do that explicitly. The question I have is: Did they assume that by making a search roll (and taking 20), the PCs were doing just that?
The problem may be, partly, miscommunication with your players. They don't know what level of specificity you expect from them. Maybe you should consider giving them some examples if you haven't done so already or consider asking more leading questions to train them in the way you expect them to play.
For example, if I have PCs searching a room and rolling for it, I ask where in the room they are looking. After all, they might roll better looking in one spot where there's nothing to find and botch the roll elsewhere when there is something of interest. If they decide to take 20, I again ask them where. If they say the whole room, they get charged for the 2 minutes per 5' x 5' square for the whole room. And they had better hope they aren't under a time pressure.

With all the complaints about how players are now focusing so much on mechanics or looking at the game in a mechanistic or board game way, I wonder how many of you are actually doing something about it? Are you retraining the players to think differently about how to approach issues like searching under straw or interacting with specific objects in the room?
Personally, I encourage my players to think creatively about how they want to develop their characters, within the reasonable limits imposed by the availability of certain PrCs within the campaign. I make sure they know that they don't have to take a prestige class, they don't have to finish it if they take one, they don't have to get to the prestige class via only one route, and just because they take levels of fighter and bard, they don't have to refrain from stealing if they want to be a thief.

Great Advice. I also want to clarify my earlier arguments, I mean professional thief. I have a bard in my campaign who is straight bard but is more of a jester. "complete with clown outfit". He is more of a thief than the rogue in the party. Even the thief makes jokes about his as he calls it "preserving artifacts in case they do not succeed and the world does end". Again its up to us to nurture creatvity in players and help them think outside the box. My Psychic Warrior read a prestige called Trophy Hunter but I didn't want it in the game. I told her she could easily just collect heads and continue with her class which would be better. Now she makes belts adorned with skulls and took some craft bone skills. No prestige needed. Again the Bard is a wonderful Jester, thief, stand-up comedian and coward with no prestige classes, just creative rpg'n, skills and feats.

YOu got to find the balance and teach the balance. A lot of us are great DMs but are we great teachers. I can't complain about one player I've ever had, even the bad ones because I feel like somewhere i tought them something. When I first started Chrsytaria I had 6 gamers whom were completely about mechanics. If it didnt say it they didn't know how to do it. They wanted to role for anything. They assumed I was skipping vital elements because I didn't request a roll. They get on a horse, they want a ride check every time. If someone did something against the law they'd complain becaus the paladin detected evil. They eventually left the group (because of attendance problems not playing style) but I know in the end they at least learned or were learning.

I began as a mechanical head and then the next campaign was a complete turn around. 3.5 diceless game. Whereas I would never do one and the game got boring in parts, it really showed me how you can do things in teh game without mechanics and dice rolls and just good role playing and character building. We all had prestiges and the DM encouraged them because he enjoyed the role playing value of them as do I. There were just some things that feats and skills couldn't do like Divine Agent.

 

[FireLance]

Just for laughs... how many of us have played with LEGO when we were kids? It used to a game with incredible creativity potential. But in years, they added more and more "pre-made" bricks (those that looked already like a finished shape): in early days you took a stick-brick and turn it into a sword, or two long+thin+flat bricks and turn them into skies, but now kids have the ready shapes for both. When you have everything ready, creativity isn't exactly helped...

This is a great analogy, by the way.

The core classes and feats are like vanilla Lego bricks. With a little creativity and skill, you can cobble together something that looks similar enough to what you want.

Point-based systems are like clay or plasticine. If you are good, you can get something that looks exactly like how you want it to. But if you're not, you end up with something that doesn't look very nice or neat.

Prestige classes are like pre-made Lego bricks. If it's right for you, you can get closer to what you have in mind. However, it does mean you have a lot more bricks to choose from, and it can get confusing as a result.

Basically, everyone has to pick his own "sweet spot" in the continuum of granular but simple, and detailed but complex.

 

[DonTadow]

This is a great analogy, by the way.

The core classes and feats are like vanilla Lego bricks. With a little creativity and skill, you can cobble together something that looks similar enough to what you want.

Point-based systems are like clay or plasticine. If you are good, you can get something that looks exactly like how you want it to. But if you're not, you end up with something that doesn't look very nice or neat.

Prestige classes are like pre-made Lego bricks. If it's right for you, you can get closer to what you have in mind. However, it does mean you have a lot more bricks to choose from, and it can get confusing as a result.

Basically, everyone has to pick his own "sweet spot" in the continuum of granular but simple, and detailed but complex.

Nah I just made more complicated things. I love tests. Same way with D and D. IT hasn't curved my creativity in the least and it tests me to find great combinations even with the premade things. Plus you can't stop the balance it gives to the game.

 

[Celebrim]

This is a great analogy, by the way...Basically, everyone has to pick his own "sweet spot" in the continuum of granular but simple, and detailed but complex.

I also think that its a pretty good analogy, but since I have a reputation for disagreeableness to maintain, I have to take a few small exceptions to it.

Base classes and feats and such are like legos. I agree with that. If you're skilled with them, you can get Lego's to look really really good and you can make a go at justs about anything, but your still limited by the shape of the bricks available in the box.

Point buy systems are like clay. I agree with that. I'd only add that the real problem with point buy isn't simply that it takes alot of skill, but that even if you have the skill it takes alot of time. Most players are good enough to craft a decent point buy character. For some things though (especially from the GM's perspective), the effort might be worth it. For others, all the time you spend making your figure is time you didn't spend playing with it.

The part I take the most exception to is that Prestige classes are like premade lego bricks. I don't think that they are that flexible. I think that prestige classes are like molded and prepainted action figures. The best of them look really cool, but you don't actually get alot of creativity in making the character. The character is pretty much already made.

 

[DonTadow]

I also think that its a pretty good analogy, but since I have a reputation for disagreeableness to maintain, I have to take a few small exceptions to it.

Base classes and feats and such are like legos. I agree with that. If you're skilled with them, you can get Lego's to look really really good and you can make a go at justs about anything, but your still limited by the shape of the bricks available in the box.

Point buy systems are like clay. I agree with that. I'd only add that the real problem with point buy isn't simply that it takes alot of skill, but that even if you have the skill it takes alot of time. Most players are good enough to craft a decent point buy character. For some things though (especially from the GM's perspective), the effort might be worth it. For others, all the time you spend making your figure is time you didn't spend playing with it.

The part I take the most exception to is that Prestige classes are like premade lego bricks. I don't think that they are that flexible. I think that prestige classes are like molded and prepainted action figures. The best of them look really cool, but you don't actually get alot of creativity in making the character. The character is pretty much already made.

The analogy is ok, but incorrect. I compare it to the big blocks and the little legos. The core system is like the big blocks. They help newbies (1-4) get into hte game easily. THen ionce you understand the system you can move on to legos, on for that matter start building the little electronic robots (remember those)

 

[Saeviomagy]

The part I take the most exception to is that Prestige classes are like premade lego bricks. I don't think that they are that flexible. I think that prestige classes are like molded and prepainted action figures. The best of them look really cool, but you don't actually get alot of creativity in making the character. The character is pretty much already made.

Except that they have to attach to the other bricks. And you can combine the premade bricks and regular ones in any combination (more or less). And you can stop using premade bricks whenever you want, prior to the completion of the action figure.

In short - I don't think your analogy works at all.

 

[Felon]

Especially since the analogy is based on the erroneous assumption that everybody likes piecing together legos. Character design is not a creative exercise for everyone. They don't want to flip through hundreds and hundreds of feats. They want the big, pre-made pieces, so why should they be denied them altogether just to suit other people's elitist tastes?

 

[Quickleaf]

"Limit any PC to 10 total Levels of PrCls." That way, someone could be a Harper, a Dervish, an Illithid Slayer and a Pyrokinetic, but not shining examples of any of those.

Remember- "Jack of All Trades, Master of None"

Great house rule Danny! The only problem I see is what happens when a 10th level Fighter, 10th level Dervish is found near death by a group of Harpers who nurse her back to health, and teach her their way. As with all rules...they're more of guidelines really.

I think the lack of flavor in the original DMG prestige classes (arcane archer, hierophant, etc) is responsible for the abuses that can be seen ongoing in PrC design. What is needed is a solid system of PrC point creation along with examples of that system applied for a variety of different play styles. These examples should illustrate PrCs tied to organizations and cultures of the campaign world. Hopefully, we'll see this in the DMG II, like DrSpunj has already posted on EnWorld.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Then it depends on your campaign.

Do you have PCs progress past 20th level? Then make the rule to be no more Total PrCl levels than Base/Core class Levels.

If not, then introduce the concept of "Unlearning."- abandoning one PrCL for another. The PC gives up the bennies of the PrCl he's abandoning to learn the new path. Once done, the PC can NEVER regain acceptance into the PrCl he has abandoned.

OR you can simply do what the flavor text says for a lot of PrCLs...there are all kinds of organizations with PrCl's, but not all people in the organization have the PrCl. So that Ftr10/Dervish10 can be a Harper, he just can't have Harper PrCl levels.