Do the initiative rules discourage parley?

[Chimera]

For example, your party could sneak up on a sleeping collection of thieves. The party is all in position and alert. The party spokesman speaks, waking the thieves. They talk for 10 seconds, then somebody does something stupid. Initiative is rolled, and it turns out all the thieves go before any of the PC's. Even though the PC's are just sitting them, arrows notched, waiting for something.

You see?

That doesn't inspire a lot of talking.

The scene you are describing has been a staple of action flicks and hero stories since the dawn of time. Despite being surrounded by guys pointing their swords/crossbows/pistols/machine guns, the good guy (or even the bad guy) gets the drop on them and kicks their asses without being harmed.

Because he got initiative, despite their prepared position.

 

[ARandomGod]

This bugs me a lot, because it removes even the appearance of the party's free will. Why should the PCs be forced to stand motionless and wait for him? They're supposed to be participants in the world, not spectators watching "DM Theatre".

When the evil wizard spends two minutes talking about his garden, that's twenty rounds of dead time-- practically an eternity! What stops the fighter from waltzing over and chopping his head off mid-word? Why don't all the characters use the free time to drink potions or cast defensive spells, or at least draw their weapons? Who says I have to be polite and let the villain talk before I start trying to kill him?

The world is controlled by the DM, but the PCs are controlled by the players. Arbitrarily screwing with that makes for (IMO) a bad game.

Hey, talking is a free action, by RAW. He gets to do as much of that as he wants on the surprise round!!!

I'm not saying that system is realistic, I'm saying that's how the rules are written.

But other than that, I'll agree that the rules as written also discourage parley. Or, at least, discourage it until after you've completely won or lost.

Of course, with the free action talking, you can start parley during combat, after the first round.

 

[ARandomGod]

To the original poster: I think part of the problem is you are mis-understanding surprise. You don't get surprise if you're standing talking with weapons out. Per the SRD: If no one or everyone starts the battle aware, there is no surprise round.

I personally don't think the initiative system discourages parley - initiative should be called after attempted dialogue has either broken down or obviously not going to be effective (like talking to an ooze )

See, now this is just self contradictory Sir Brennen. Due to the fact that if you're standing there talking with weapons out noone gets surprise, yet you don't think this discourages parley? I mean, that first sentace acknowledges the very fact that the poster was pointing out, if you attempt to talk, you've given something up, the garuntee of going first (assuming you would have gotten surprise).

 

[ARandomGod]

"and that you can't ready an action until combat begins, not during your soliliquy."

Nothing in the SRD about readying during a soliliquy?! I tell you, these rules don't cover the most obvious situations that come up...

But see, there ARE rules for 'readying an action during your soliliquy'. It's called "ready an action on your turn" and "talking is a free action". Of course, you can't wait for a *reply* without giving away your surprise round, but apparently, RAW, you can talk for an hour first.

 

[ARandomGod]

DM: "The door is kicked open, and a large man dressed -"
Players: "I shoot him."
DM: "Uh, OOC, calm down guys, you'll get your chance. It's just flavor text. A large man-"
Players: "We shoot him."
DM: "Look, I'm not trying to pull a fast one on you or give him a surprise round. I just want to read -"
Players: "We shoot him already! Come on!"

Now, I'm not saying that the players can't do that, because you're right, they can. But to even interrupt the description of something happening is pretty far out. There's one NPC they got no help from.

Heheh.
I just pictured my players doing that, and how I'd react.
Basically I'd say.

GM: " OK, you shoot him. Roll. 2? You hit. As the arrow enters his body he explodes. Larry, you hit him, go ahead and roll the 5d6 force damage that hits you as he explodes."
Players: "Damn!"
GM: "Running up to the door is a large man, dressed ..."
Players: "We shoot him"
Gm: "Umm... ok... roll. One? Hell, you hit him anyway, the arrow seems to be attracted to his body, as the arrow enters, he explodes. Jeff, you hit him this time, right? Well, roll 7d6 cold damage, and everyone in the blast radius... yes, that's all of you... no Larry, there's no save for this spell... as I was saying, everyone in the blast radius takes 4 dex damage."
GM: "Anyway, as you are recovering from that blast, a man runs up to the door, he is wearing... Guys, are you gonna shoot? No? Good. Ok, he's wearing a "

 

[Jeff Wilder]

First of all, I really appreciate all the responses. Unfortunately, it seems pretty clear that the RAW do discourage pausing to parley (even at crossbow-point).

Second, I don't know where a couple of posters got the impression it was my belief that "whoever goes first gets a surprise round." I understand the surprise rules well (and, unfortunately, apparently understand the overall initiative rules well), and nothing I wrote in my original post implied that I thought going first automatically provided a surprise round.

Third, the statement that if two groups are wary of one another neither can be caught flat-footed is wrong by the RAW. This, along with "everybody is assumed to have readied an action," is among the most common of house rules designed to fix this flaw in the initiative system. Y'all might not even realize you're playing with a house rule, but you are. ("Not that there's anything wrong with that." "Of course not!")

I think the best suggestion I've seen for a fix, though, is the "auto-20." As that poster pointed out, this still allows a fast enemy to win initiative, even at that disadvantage, which I think fits the genre well. Unfortunately, it's a house rule, and I'm really trying to avoid house rules. So I'm stuck with the RAW.

BTW, it really is "parley," not "parlay." Look it up (in a source other than Pirates of the Caribbean, I mean):

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/parley

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/parlay

 

[KarinsDad]

He stops being flat-footed even if he doesn't want to? That's pretty asinine.

What is asinine is that you are making up your own rules in a rules forum.

Flat-footedness is a rule that is NOT the same as being denied your Dex bonus.

You are flat-footed UNTIL your first turn in the current combat. Once your turn comes up in combat, the RULES state that you are no longer flat-footed.

There are no rules for being flat-footed after this point in time.

There are no rules for "wanting to be flat-footed".

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, that's why I put 'take 20' in quotes, because although it is effectively the same as taking 20, it's not actually the same mechanic as taking 20 with a skill check. At all.

First off, nobody can interpret your intent that way. If you say "Take 20", we think you mean "Take 20".

Secondly, now that you have stated this, you are now making up a house rule here.

Take 20 IS a rule. It is a rule for both skills and ability checks. Rolling initiative IS an ability check. It is a Dexterity ability check:

"The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks."

"At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll."

"When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20."


So, what you stated COULD be done, in reality, cannot be done according to the rules. It is a house rule if you give all readying characters an automatic 20 on their initiative.

 

[KarinsDad]

When you take a readied action, your action is resolved before that of your opponent, and your initiative is also before that of your opponent.
Since your opponent has not acted yet, he is still flat-footed when you get your go.

In a hyper-literal interpretation, "Freeze or I shoot" and "I ready my action for if he does anything" would have to be restated as "render yourself helpless or I shoot" and the readied action would be "I ready my action to shoot if he does anything except render himself helpless".

And it is perfectly possible to give up your dex bonus. I believe the optional rules on striking cover include the possibility (ie - if you want to give cover to a friend, you can choose to discard your dex bonus to allow a projectile to strike you). Although that may be 3.0...

Actually, you have two errors in what you wrote here:

1) I was answering his question about flat-footness, not about being denied a Dex bonus. These are two different game concepts:

"Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed."


2) When a readied action goes off, not only does the triggering action have to have a specific action that it triggers on ("I ready if he does anything" is discouraged in the DMG because it is not specific), it also does not occur before the initiative of the character who caused it. It interrupts that action, but that does NOT mean that it occurs before the character is no longer flat-footed.

For example, you ready an action to fire your missile at the first character through the doorway. My character walks up to the doorway and walks through. I did a move action BEFORE your ready action occurred. Your initiative in future rounds is before mine, but that does not mean that you acted before I got to act.

In the case of you readying an action to fire at me if "I do anything" on a surprise round, I can perform a delay action of my own which will not trigger your action:

"By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat."

You cannot stop this. You cannot deny me the ability to no longer be flat-footed.

Once I delay, I HAVE had a chance to act, hence, I am no longer flat-footed. Once I do anything, even though your Readied Action occurs before my action, I have had a chance to act and hence, I am no longer flat-footed.

According to RAW.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, it does - for a certain value of "very well."

Talking is a free action and, unlike most actions, can be done outside of your own turn.

One party surprises the other, asks them if they want to parley. The other side, outside of its own turn in initiative order, can respond. If they don't choose to respond (or respond negatively), then the first side still has surprise.

That's pushing the "speaking outside the turn" rule.

"In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Some DMs might rule that that a character can only speak on this turn, or that a character can't speak while flat-footed (and thus can't warn allies of a surprise threat until he has a chance to act). Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action; to communicate more than that, your DM may require that you take a move-action or even a full round action."

The rule is open-ended here, but it does not stop time. It does not allow for a conversation during a surprise round because a conversation is typically more than a few sentences. So, the surprising group has to either perform their standard actions, or not.

Initiative does not stop. If you want to ready an action during the surprise round to "attack if his answer is not what I want", that is your perogative. But having a conversation during the surprise round is not a perogative.

Nor is talking while flat-footed a game rule. It is optional, just like not allowing talking while flat-footed. The rule is not specific one way or the other. Both are allowed.