Do the initiative rules discourage parley?

[Saeviomagy]

Actually, you have two errors in what you wrote here:

1) I was answering his question about flat-footness, not about being denied a Dex bonus. These are two different game concepts:

"Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed."

Eh? I don't see where the error here is. Combat starts, guy is flat-footed, and if he takes any action other than becoming helpless/flat-footed, you shoot him.

2) When a readied action goes off, not only does the triggering action have to have a specific action that it triggers on ("I ready if he does anything" is discouraged in the DMG because it is not specific),

Fine. "I ready for when that guy stops being flat-footed and does anything other than render himself helpless". Specific enough for you? Or would you prefer I spec it out in wishese*?

it also does not occur before the initiative of the character who caused it. It interrupts that action, but that does NOT mean that it occurs before the character is no longer flat-footed.

"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it".

In other words, your opponent's go. It makes no sense to work this way, but it's what the raw says.

For example, you ready an action to fire your missile at the first character through the doorway. My character walks up to the doorway and walks through. I did a move action BEFORE your ready action occurred. Your initiative in future rounds is before mine, but that does not mean that you acted before I got to act.

According to the raw, it does. I think that the DM is expected to interpret "I attack when someone moves through the door" as "I attack after someone moves through the door, but before they do anything else"

In the case of you readying an action to fire at me if "I do anything" on a surprise round, I can perform a delay action of my own which will not trigger your action:

"By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat."

You cannot stop this. You cannot deny me the ability to no longer be flat-footed.

Why not? I see you shifting into a stance of combat-readyness and fire. It happens before you shift into a stance of combat-readyness, therefore you are flat-footed.

Once I delay, I HAVE had a chance to act, hence, I am no longer flat-footed. Once I do anything, even though your Readied Action occurs before my action, I have had a chance to act and hence, I am no longer flat-footed.

According to RAW.

No, according to the raw, my chance to fire comes before your chance to act.

*wishese - the language by which it is necessary to phrase a wish request in order to avoid getting screwed

 

[Staffan]

If you'll look on page 134 of the 3.0 Player's Handbook, you'll see a tiny little entry in the middle of the page for 'Refocus'. My understanding is that it disappeared from 3.5. That's a shame, because as a DM I've found it one of the most useful tools for sorting things out. Basically, it lets you take 20 on your initiative as a full round action where you just observe whats going on around you and get ready to act. As I understand it, 3.5 got rid of it by letting you take a Ready action that would effectively move your action to the top of the initiative order at the beginning of the next turn.

Refocus was replaced by Delay (which now works across rounds), not Ready. In effect, it is even better now, because you won't get beaten by some stupid rogue with Improved init who got initiative 29.

 

[edhel]

I, for one, welcome our new petunia overlords.

 

[two]

vast confusion

The scene you are describing has been a staple of action flicks and hero stories since the dawn of time. Despite being surrounded by guys pointing their swords/crossbows/pistols/machine guns, the good guy (or even the bad guy) gets the drop on them and kicks their asses without being harmed.

Because he got initiative, despite their prepared position.

I think there is vast confustion about this topic.

The actual subject is: does D&D, as a GAME SYSTEM, facillitate or hinder parley?

If you are playing a RPG where the hero is a James Bond type hero, then the D&D system works well enough. The James Bond type hero probably has a huge initiative modifier (compared to mooks) and "gets to go first" a lot of the time, despite any and all environmental circumstances. Plus he also gets actions points and re-rolls and what have you.

That's not what we are talking about.

We are talking about a situation where a party of PC's (for example) sneaks up on a band of thieves (equally high level, not mooks a la the James Bond example).

The party can:

1) Wake up the thieves and parley, then attack if it gets ugly, or
2) Just attack without parley.

As a GAME SYSTEM, D&D penalizes in many ways option 1). Tactically, it's always better to go with 2).

That is in my and others view not so great when you want to actually, well, engage the enemy in dialogue.

It's easy to come up with ideas for rules that would facillitate parley; for example, the ability to retain your "first strike" perogative even after speaking with a surprised enemy.

D&D doesn't haves rules like that.

 

[werk]

Eh? I don't see where the error here is. Combat starts, guy is flat-footed, and if he takes any action other than becoming helpless/flat-footed, you shoot him.

Ok, so the foe is flat footed, you shoot a fireball at him, does he get his dex bonus to reflex save? Yes, because he is flat-footed instead of being denied his dex bonus. Word choice is very important, even if you don't see it.

Fine. "I ready for when that guy stops being flat-footed and does anything other than render himself helpless". Specific enough for you? Or would you prefer I spec it out in wishese*?

No, you are missing the point and being argumentative. You need to decalre what you are going to do and what you are waiting for to trigger the action. Otherwise, you just get to go first all the time. What if you ready to attack when he does something and he does the same?

According to the raw, it does. I think that the DM is expected to interpret "I attack when someone moves through the door" as "I attack after someone moves through the door, but before they do anything else"

That works. "I wait until he makes a move action before I cast." The only action that matters is the trigger, anything after that is moot with regard to this discussion.

At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order)

You can't ready an action until your turn (a chance to act, not an action), after which you are not flat-footed.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Ok, so the foe is flat footed, you shoot a fireball at him, does he get his dex bonus to reflex save? Yes, because he is flat-footed instead of being denied his dex bonus. Word choice is very important, even if you don't see it.

Except that what you just said is wrong, as well. You always get your Dex modifier to Reflex saves, regardless of whether or not you are "flat-footed" or "denied your Dex."

You even get your Dex modifier to saves when you're helpless! (Note, however, that when helpless you generally have an effective Dex of 0.)

 

[KarinsDad]

No, according to the raw, my chance to fire comes before your chance to act.

Your action interrupts mine and occurs before mine.

Your action does NOT occur before my chance to act. In order for the trigger to occur, I have to decide on an action. In order to decide on an action, I have to have a chance to act.

There is no way you can prevent a character from losing being flat-footed with a ready action unless you trigger on someone else's initiative that occurs before his initiative.

According to RAW. I've already quoted the appropriate rule above.

 

[KarinsDad]

Eh? I don't see where the error here is. Combat starts, guy is flat-footed, and if he takes any action other than becoming helpless/flat-footed, you shoot him.

Helpless and Flat-footed are game mechanics.

They are not game actions.

He can decide to not move. He can decide to not talk. He can decide to not breathe.

He cannot decide to become helpless.

He cannot decide to stay or become flat-footed.

Even if he decides to not move, not talk, and not breathe, he is still NOT flat-footed and he is still NOT helpless.

You are only helpless in the game when some condition makes you helpless. You are only flat-footed in the game when some condition (i.e. your initiative has not yet come up in combat) makes you flat-footed.

 

[Aenghus]

I have a few separate points.

1) no, D&D doesn't encourage parley, but in the average game this is not an issue as the PCs are encountering monsters they are intended to fight in any case.

2) Re encouraging parley attempts, IMO posters have been too light on the carrot and too heavy on the stick. If a DM seriously wants to encourage parley attempts he/she should give examples via NPC interaction of successful and believable parley results, and takes steps so that the PCs are in some way rewarded for attempting to parley themselves.

3) BBEG soliliquy's are a special case. These are generally a dramatic device and often are unrealistic within the confines of a typical PC heroes vs irredemably evil bad guys plot. If the DM is set on having the BBEG deliver a grandiose speech you have to give all the PCs IC reasons to listen to it (it takes only one character to jump the gun).

If the BBEG is known by the party to be responsible for multiple atrocities( eg kidnapping orphan Timmy to sacrifice to complete the Ritual of Ultimate Doom), and isn't known to have vital information the PCs really need, then it makes sense for the PCs to attack immediately without preamble.

Now if the PCs want to find Timmy and only the BBEG knows where Timmy is, some sort of negotiation is potentially possible.

And don't punish the players for going along with a more or less artificial dramatic device.

4) some DMs just don't run interesting negotiations whether due to disinterest or lack of relevant skills.

Aenghus

I've noticed in 3E that players (including me) rush immediately into combat with the Bad Guys, hoping to get a surprise round. It occurs to me that the rules actually discourage pausing to soliloquy or offer surrender terms or gloat or anything but charge.

Am I missing something that would encourage my players to pause and talk to the Bad Guys before slaughtering them?

 

[werk]

Except that what you just said is wrong, as well. You always get your Dex modifier to Reflex saves, regardless of whether or not you are "flat-footed" or "denied your Dex."

You even get your Dex modifier to saves when you're helpless! (Note, however, that when helpless you generally have an effective Dex of 0.)

You're right, you either lose your dex bonus to AC or your dex is set to 0 because you are paralyzed or some other helpless state. So his word choice really didn't matter after all.

appologies to all.