D&D (2024) Do We Really Need Levels 11-20?

[Upper_Krust]

Eh, I think people I know are more interested in stories than "builds".

Perhaps the immortal is reinventing itself each time it grows in power to appeal to more worshippers. Taking on more responsibility, all while spreading its 'story' (ie. Myths and Legends).

 

[prabe]

WotC has continually tried to up the Level published material hoes to, and it hasn't worked, people still stop at the same place. I don't think lack of support is the issue, as much as lack of broader interest even when there is support.

My sense is that most people running published campaigns at least try to play to the end/s of those campaigns. Certainly that'd be where the narrative would run out of steam. (Sometimes campaigns crash and burn for any of a number of reasons, many of which will have little or nothing to do with PC level/s.)

Is it possible that there are some GMs homebrewing adventures who aren't leaving enough things pending to maintain narrative steam past somewhere in the level 10-12 range? Sure. I just think a lot of that is because they don't want to run at higher levels, and I think a lot of that is because much past that you are very much on your own, operating without a net, as a GM.

 

[SteveC]

I think what would server 5.5E well would be to have a serious discussion about how the game plays differently at different tiers of play. At what level are different abilities or powers taken as a given? At what level should you expect to have flight available for extended periods? How about water breathing? Condition immunities? Other things that are a part of the game that I'm not even thinking of ()?

If a high level adventure is the same a low levels except for bigger numbers all around, that's ... not helpful to either the DM or the players figuring out how to navigate things.

And with this said, it may very well be that this is discussed in the DMG. I know in 4E tiers of play had different expectations spelled out. I just haven't read the new DMG yet, so you can feel free to school me.

 

[Parmandur]

My sense is that most people running published campaigns at least try to play to the end/s of those campaigns. Certainly that'd be where the narrative would run out of steam. (Sometimes campaigns crash and burn for any of a number of reasons, many of which will have little or nothing to do with PC level/s.)

Is it possible that there are some GMs homebrewing adventures who aren't leaving enough things pending to maintain narrative steam past somewhere in the level 10-12 range? Sure. I just think a lot of that is because they don't want to run at higher levels, and I think a lot of that is because much past that you are very much on your own, operating without a net, as a GM.

Nope, per WotC people peter out about the same place in pre-publiahwd campaigns, even ones that go much further. It's why they changed the Levels in the Campaigns, no takers on higher Level options.

 

[DragonLancer]

I think the whole going up to 20th is one of those sacred cows in built to Dungeons & Dragons that fits the game's legendary status (struggling to think of the right turn of phrase). It's the same as alignment, beholders', chromatic/metallic dragons, vorpal swords...etc. When we think of D&D, at least when myself and people I know, think of a D&D campaign it is one of 1st through 20th. Taking that away would diminish the game. It wouldn't be the same game that we love.

In the likes of 1st and 2nd edition, we didn't push much into the teen levels because magic broke the game after a point. D&D has improved that. I think the game has improved in that regard as the editions have moved along and now D&D is in a good, more balanced, position to allow high level play.

As for why players these days aren't going the full way to 20th... it's going to differ by group and player, but there isn't enough high level material out there, even in 3PP or fan made PDFs on places like Drivethrough. I'm used to Paizo over the last 15 years doing full fledged adventure paths that take you from 1st to at least 16th if not higher in some cases. I may have to go back to some of the ones we never played and convert them to 2024.

 

[Tonguez]

Maybe a Level 15 cap, but leave 16+ for those who really want to battle the gods

 

[Parmandur]

I think the whole going up to 20th is one of those sacred cows in built to Dungeons & Dragons that fits the game's legendary status (struggling to think of the right turn of phrase). It's the same as alignment, beholders', chromatic/metallic dragons, vorpal swords...etc. When we think of D&D, at least when myself and people I know, think of a D&D campaign it is one of 1st through 20th. Taking that away would diminish the game. It wouldn't be the same game that we love.

In the likes of 1st and 2nd edition, we didn't push much into the teen levels because magic broke the game after a point. D&D has improved that. I think the game has improved in that regard as the editions have moved along and now D&D is in a good, more balanced, position to allow high level play.

As for why players these days aren't going the full way to 20th... it's going to differ by group and player, but there isn't enough high level material out there, even in 3PP or fan made PDFs on places like Drivethrough. I'm used to Paizo over the last 15 years doing full fledged adventure paths that take you from 1st to at least 16th if not higher in some cases. I may have to go back to some of the ones we never played and convert them to 2024.

I think you are right that 1-20 is part of the brand identity, at least aspirationally. I don't think much gas changed since B/X: the C0mpanion and Master boxed never sold a fraction as well as Basic and Expert.

 

[prabe]

Nope, per WotC people peter out about the same place in pre-publiahwd campaigns, even ones that go much further. It's why they changed the Levels in the Campaigns, no takers on higher Level options.

I figure that's campaigns crashing and burning as much as anything else. Lord knows getting through some of WotC's published campaigns is a frickin drag.

 

[payn]

Damn, is this the fastest 6 pages ever?

No, I do not need levels 11-20 at all. I play a lot of Traveller that I would say at most is like levels 1-3 in comparison. I often played E6-E8 in 3E and PF1. 5E with BA is actually not all that bad at higher levels, but I still wouldnt miss them.

Take that with a grain of salt as I have never liked high level play anyways. Power level too gonzo for me, so its preference. Everybody should get their D&D at least theoretically.

 

[Parmandur]

I figure that's campaigns crashing and burning as much as anything else. Lord knows getting through some of WotC's published campaigns is a frickin drag.

Maybe. Most likely, given that the reported terminal Level range is the same regardless, is that people just don't generally want to play past a certain point.