Planescape Do You Care About Planescape Lore?

[Weather Report]

1) Yeah, I remember that issue; I recall thinking that, if you had to make Athas have its own cosmology, that was "good enough."

2) The Black, like the Grey, appear to be some sort of dimension/plane tied to Athas, apparently both replacing its Border Ethereal (the Grey seems to mostly fill this in, being the "larger" of the two).

3) It's never stated, but I always wondered if this was why its crystal sphere was impregnable (that or that 11th-level spell from the Forgotten Realms Arcane Age: Empire of Netheril boxed set that seals a crystal sphere).

1) I felt it was a bit lacklustre, and lacked the vibe and sophistication of the setting.

2) I think they work best as dimensions tied to Athas, not planes (as you still have the Ethereal, and an Athasian domain in Ravenloft), I remember (been awhile) Basic D&D cosmology separated planes and dimensions clearer than AD&D.

3) Hmm, very interesting, I like it; and I knew I should have picked up that boxed set back in the day!

Hey, thanks again for the juicy Athasian cosmological tidbits.

 

[Alzrius]

1) I felt it was a bit lacklustre, and lacked the vibe and sophistication of the setting.

I agree, but you take what you can get with a single magazine article.

2) I think they work best as dimensions tied to Athas, not planes (as you still have the Ethereal, and an Athasian domain in Ravenloft), I remember (been awhile) Basic D&D cosmology separated planes and dimensions clearer than AD&D.

Well, Basic D&D did define the differences, but AD&D had no real difference between "dimensions" and "planes" - though I did like how Third Edition put forth the notation that there were multiple cosmologies out there (linked, oddly enough, through the Plane of Shadow, though Lords of Madness confirmed that a gate will take you directly from one cosmology to another. Personally, I'd have added that you can also cross cosmologies through the Far Realm...though woe to those who try!).

Presumably, Ravenloft could reach Athas through the Grey due to the greater connections between Athas and the Ethereal and Inner Planes, and/or the Dark Powers are strong enough to make it anyway (since, after all, an artifact like Dregoth's mirror can also bypass the planar interference).

If I recall correctly, the Shadow World for the Birthright crystal sphere was similar (it may have been called a demiplane in some places, but it was clearly more akin to the Grey. I think this is addressed in The Planewalker's Handbook).

3) Hmm, very interesting, I like it; and I knew I should have picked up that boxed set back in the day!

Hey, thanks again for the juicy Athasian cosmological tidbits.

It's been my pleasure. I do love talking about the intricacies of the old campaign settings!

 

[Weather Report]

1) Well, Basic D&D did define the differences, but AD&D had no real difference between "dimensions" and "planes" - though I did like how Third Edition put forth the notation that there were multiple cosmologies out there (linked, oddly enough, through the Plane of Shadow, though Lords of Madness confirmed that a gate will take you directly from one cosmology to another. Personally, I'd have added that you can also cross cosmologies through the Far Realm...though woe to those who try!).

2) If I recall correctly, the Shadow World for the Birthright crystal sphere was similar (it may have been called a demiplane in some places, but it was clearly more akin to the Grey. I think this is addressed in The Planewalker's Handbook).

3) It's been my pleasure. I do love talking about the intricacies of the old campaign settings!

1) Yes, Dimensions are broader than planes, and that was one of my favourite bits of planar lore that 3rd Ed added: The Plane of Shadow connecting alternate Cosmologies; I agree about the Far Realms being another way (more like a dimension, than a plane), also, The Realms of Dreams and perhaps The Plane of Mirrors.

2) Ah, I don't see the Shadow World near a demi-plane, just a layer on Cerilia.

3) It's addictive!

 

[Shemeska]

1) Yes, Dimensions are broader than planes, and that was one of my favourite bits of planar lore that 3rd Ed added: The Plane of Shadow connecting alternate Cosmologies,: I agree about the Far Realms being another way (more like a dimension, than a plane), also, The Realms of Dreams and perhaps The Plane of Mirrors.

It was a nice detail, but with one thing I found problematic: that was already something that the deep ethereal did in 2e as a bottomless metaphysical ocean on which cosmologies drifted like bubbles on an ocean (the Great Wheel being one, the Far Realm being another, the reality the Keepers came from being yet another). That role for the ethereal also popped up in 3e IIRC in the Ecology of the Keeper (I should recall the specifics, being that I wrote it, but it has been a while and I don't recall what made it to print versus draft).

Personally I'd keep the cosmology crossing to the deep ethereal, and use the shadow plane as just for crossing between prime material worlds. But that's just my preference.

2), Definitely, the Shadow World is nowhere near a demi-plane, just a layer on Cerilia.

3) It's addictive![/QUOTE]

 

[Alzrius]

It was a nice detail, but with one thing I found problematic: that was already something that the deep ethereal did in 2e as a bottomless metaphysical ocean on which cosmologies drifted like bubbles on an ocean (the Great Wheel being one, the Far Realm being another, the reality the Keepers came from being yet another.

I don't think that's correct, Shemmy. As I recall, the Deep Ethereal was a realm of possibilities (which could presumably grow into new planes, and from there cosmologies) but they weren't fully-formed. That's why you had demiplanes in the Deep Ethereal; they grew there. The "failed" cosmology that the illithids came from in their trilogy of adventures (e.g. Dawn of the Overmind) was an example of this - that cosmology wasn't real; they were trying to make it become real, and replace the current one.

 

[Weather Report]

I don't think that's correct, Shemmy. As I recall, the Deep Ethereal was a realm of possibilities (which could presumably grow into new planes, and from there cosmologies) but they weren't fully-formed. That's why you had demiplanes in the Deep Ethereal; they grew there. The "failed" cosmology that the illithids came from in their trilogy of adventures (e.g. Dawn of the Overmind) was an example of this - that cosmology wasn't real; they were trying to make it become real, and replace the current one.

Yes, like potentially Ravenloft could become an Outer Plane; the Ethereal is the birth of things, the elements, and dreams (individual Dreamscapes are in the border Ethereal); the Astral is nothing, where things go to die (gods, etc).

 

[Alzrius]

Yes, like potentially Ravenloft could become an Outer Plane; the Ethereal is the birth of things, the elements, and dreams (individual Dreamscapes are in the border Ethereal); the Astral is nothing, where things go to die (gods, etc).

Well, dreams are in the Color Wall that separates the Border Ethereal from the Deep (and it seems odd to imagine Ravenloft as anything other than a demiplane), but otherwise yeah.

 

[Weather Report]

and it seems odd to imagine Ravenloft as anything other than a demiplane

True, part of its charm is being a cheeky little demi-plane, but it has the potential to become a full-fledged plane, maybe that is the overarching plan of the Dark Powers (which some over on Planewalker theorise are part of the Ancient Brethren).

 

[Ratskinner]

But I don't think that is at odds with my post that you quoted (and that I've requoted above). 4e's cosmology establishs tropes and themes - but doesn't answer the questions (eg the game leaves it open whether the players and their PCs will side with the "stern" gods like Erathis and Bane, the "ambivalent" gods like Corellon and Avandra, or the primordials, in the ensuing "Dusk War"). It doesn't have metaplot, or secret campaign elements that invalidate the surface lore, thereby turning the players into mere observers of the GM's telling of his/her setting story.

I didn't find that Planescape Lore/Cosmology did any of that (not more than 2e did natively, anyway). Certainly its influence outside its own campaign setting was less than 4e's cosmology. Which makes it odd for me to hear 4e fans grumble about Planescape in that context.

OTOH, I'm not a fan of that sort of "lore bleed" in either case (despite generally liking Planescape). When I look at it, I wonder why Planescape "bled" so much more than Spelljammer. Especially since, to my eyes, Planescape seems to provoke disproportionate resentment. For instance, I don't understand why the Blood Wars are so reviled, and yet the Crystal Spheres and Neogi seem to pass without comment. ::shrug::

 

[Ratskinner]

No, but MotP is not a core book. Also, on one or the other of these threads, multiple posters have talked about a MotP that emphasises options. A simple example is the 4e MotP, which explains how to reproduce the Great Wheel using 4e mechanics and conventions; a more complex example, I think, is the sample cosmologies in the 3E DDG.

The best example I've seen was actually a WotC product from "before they were famous" in 1993. Chessboards for their product line (game?) The Primal Order. Of course, to my eyes, that whole line served as a wonderful treatise on cosmologies and divinities in rpgs.