Do you Enjoy running high level games?

[Evilhalfling]

I have always ended 3.x games at 11th -13th levels.
So I took a break and another person ran a 12th to 16th level game (CoSQ). The players had fun, mostly, but it burned him out. Most of the characters were flatter and less human seeming then eqv lower level chars. You had to min/max your character, in order to be useful in the party as some one or two medocore builds in a party of 6 is obvious. and players would retire characters that were not working out (normally after 1 or 2 deaths) The high level tatics were a headache to both sides and we skipped the last couple of encounters, using an artifact and then a gladiator tournement set up to finish the game- (no retreat minimum prep time) It was normally the combination of druid and cleric that took longer in spell selection time.
I keep intending to run a higher level game, but the burdens and responsibilites are great at those levels, either tireing out players or DM.

 

[DrNilesCrane]

Buck's NPC generators (and the tools on this site) are a big help. I find that taking into account what the various spells can do is difficult - not just what the PCs can do, but enemies and other allies who might be working along the same paths as the PCs (my high level campaign involves a lot of politics between the nobles, arcanists, and church within a duchy, so there is a lot of potential high level spell power around).

I've particularly liked modules (like Monte Cook's Demon God's Fane) that takes these spells into account and assumes the party will use them.

 

[GuardianLurker]

I'm currently running 15th level characters (the first time I've really had high level play in any edition). I'm enjoying the plots/scenarios it lets me run, but stating NPCs is still a bear; even with the kind of shortcuts that Simon and Henry use, it still takes me hours for a single 20th-level NPC.

And that's primarily because I don't use baseline NPCs, so the fault is mine to some degree. Stating out a Swarmshifting Vilewight Wiz 5/Alienist 7 just takes time - but they're fun to play with (on both sides, it seems).

And I must admit, I'm getting better - I just discovered the "mook" tactic. It's not something you can do with low-level 3e characters, but this past story-thread had the PCs literally wading through Zombies, Skeletons, and Wights to get to the BigBads.

 

[Angel of Adventure]

I really think that story controls, vs. level/power controls are the best way to make D&D interesting, regardles of the level. My high level group had a bit of a frustrating (in a good way) time when they found out the town they saved was less than grateful. Long story short, sure they could use all their powers and simply take things over. However, no matter how much they bullied, they could not get anyone to cooperate and simply give them what they wanted. (I believe they were fined for something and the constable just wouldn't let it go.)

Per monsters, etc., my cheap-o tactic has been to run thru the Rogues Gallery threads, grab other DMs BEBGs and modify them to suit the situation.

 

[A'koss]

Running a solo game for a non-spellcasting high level PC with limited spellcaster support from NPCs and it can be very cool, very cinematic & swords & sorcery-esque. Makes for a Conan, Beowulf or Achilles type experience. It's high level PC spellcasting in 3e is the problem, I think.

Well, you would have to do more than just prune the high level spellcasting to make it more like C, B or A but that would certainly be the place you'd start.

I don't think D&D of any particular type is required to model any particular fantasy novel any more than any fantasy novel is required to model any other.

I never said D&D should model a particular novel, but think it would be better if it stayed more true to the particular genre it's supposed to model. Call it what you will - Sword & Sorcery, Cinematic Medieval Fantasy... there are certain elements in the style of play and cimematic battles you come to expect from that genre. High level characters can simply do too much IMO. When death becomes a mere inconvience (and an inconveniece you repeated suffer from ), intelligence gathering can be gleaned at a whim, characters carry enough magical gear to break the economies of most nations and long distance travel boils down a few words and a flick of the wrist... I don't recognize this style of game as anything other than HL D&D.

Just my 2 bits...

 

[Odysseus]

As was mentioned above. The quick and easy way to create high level charcters is , not to worry about the detail.

As to challenging a high level party.
Try putting them up against themselves,use their character sheets as the basis for their oppenents.
With parties with lots of magic, use for anti magic, and very high level dispels spell.
Or take the game planer, to a plane where the rules aren't what the party is used too.

 

[evildmguy]

Okay, my original thought was to reply with only "Try Exalted for high level PC stomping goodness." But then it seems I am bashing d20. I am not. d20 is a good game for those who like it. It has a lot of good things about it. However, for me, its roots are too mired in wargaming and that's not what I want in my gaming. Fortunately, I found in Exalted a game that is the style I want that also emphasizes the characters.

I think trying Exalted for groups that want to play a high level, epic fantasy game, is a workable solution. The down side is that it would take time and money to do this. However, I think it is worth it.

Exalted characters start at the equivalent to 12th to 15th level DND characters. They can already do huge things and they keep getting more powerful. That's okay, though, because the rules can handle it. I don't want to get into it at this point, so hopefully people can trust me on this point.

Further, as this is a Storytelling game, the emphasis is on the characters and what they do, not their cool stuff at high levels.

"I attempt a bulls Rush to knock back the Archer 5 feet and thus off the infinite staircase into the void, make a dex DC save to cling to the stairs edge or fall for all eternity." Now thats dramatics!

In Exalted, a player who described his attack as such would get a bonus for trying a stunt, a descriptive way of describing what their character is doing. And it isn't limited to combat! Anytime the player has to roll the dice, they can attempt a stunt. So, if the player describes how the character casts a spell and what happens that can be a bonus! And that's just part of the reason I like Exalted so much!

Great topic! Thanks!

edg
former Alternity pimp
current Exalted (WW) pimp

 

[Pants]

I enjoy High Level play, but seeing as the highest level game I've ever DMed got up to just around level 15 (almost pre-high level), maybe my opinion isn't worth as much. Still, I've enjoyed DMing groups at any levels. I like DMing at the low, low levels the least (levels 1 and 2) since the PC's, IME, don't really hit their strides until 3rd or 4th levels.

As a player, I'm sick to death of playing at 1st and 2nd level. I've rolled up so many PC's that have only gotten to levels 2 or 3 before the 'campaign' would end that I'm just so sick of it. I really would like to play a character that actually goes somewhere rather than fizzle out just when it's getting interesting. I also think that playing Wizards and Sorcerers at level 1 is incredibly boring. So low levels (1-5) are my least favorite overall.

Medium levels (levels 6-10 or so) are fricken fun. The amount of abilities that the PC's have are pretty varied, they aren't too powerful and they aren't too weak either. Plus, by this point, the PC's are usually able to take on some of the more iconic monsters and they've usually built up bases of power and reputations. Medium level play is fun, from a DMing point of view and playing pov.

PreHigh Level Play (11-15) is also pretty fun, although SOME fights do really end up being 'Who rolls initiative first?' type affairs. And statting up PHL opponents can take a lot of time too, but I've always felt that the work involved usually is outweighed by the tremendous amount of fun involved. The PC's can now take on Beholders, Illithids, Dragons, Demons, Devils, Daemons, and Giants. Planar adventures become more common. The PC's are becoming veritable world powers with enemies, allies, and minions of their own. I haven't played a character past level 10 yet, but I'd love to. The amount of things a character can do at this stage is phenomenal and I hope my DM continues to run his campaign.

High Level (16-20). Never played it and never DMed it, but I want to at least try it before I pass judgement.

Epic (21+). Honestly, I have no intention of ever running an Epic game. I'm not a big fan of the rules as they are written and the monsters abilities usually boil down to either A) Save or Die or B) Save or take lots of Permanent Ability Damage. Not my idea of fun, but I wouldn't mind trying to play in an Epic campaign.

 

[Stalker0]

I agree with 5th-12th being the most fun. Also I think its the best class balance in that range. Fighters and Casters are pretty equal in that area.

I do have to agree that the few times I played high level and liked it was building up to it. Starting at high level gives you a bunch of crunched out cheesy monkey soulless characters.

I've noticed players tend to spend a certain amount of time on creation....either background or mechanics. The more mechanics you have the more background suffers. I'd say teh most inspired backgrounds I've ever seen were for 1st level characters.

 

[Altalazar]

I think it is just a case of adjusting the campaign as the levels rise. It shifts from life and death battles with a few goblins to disputes between kingdoms.

What I enjoyed most, as a player, about high level play was getting to start to do things that impacted the world - building strongholds, clearing territory, dealing with neighboring territories, etc. Things that can't be solved with a single big combat. Things that take the game to a different level.

I think the reason many don't like higher level play is they are trying to ram a square peg into a round hole - the sorts of plots that work for low level characters just don't work and are not appropriate for higher level characters.

PCs don't need to be legendary heroes - just rich landowners - if you like the roleplaying and such, think of all of the juicy possibilities if the PCs found their own city, or are on a city council, or are dealing with border tensions. No matter how powerful they are, they can't be in every place at once, and economic prosperity requires stability that is based on more than the personal presence of the PCs.

Ah, I miss the days of running my own little country as a PC in 1E - I had lots of characters generated out of that - after a while, I started running the followers / apprentices of some of those characters. Then I got the best of both worlds - and we could then go back to some lower level adventures sometimes, without giving up the higher level characters or the connection to that world.