Do you have any class? The class discussion thread (Paladins and Warlocks and Clerics, OH MY!!

[doctorbadwolf]

I like class to have lore, a story, and for that lore to inform what mechanics it is given.

I do, however, treat them as ability packages when making a character. If a player wants to play the class straight, good for them. If not, also good for them. I’ve played a Ancients Paladin as something more akin to a hex-blade Fey Knight, and I’ve played a rogue/Bladesinger wizard entirely as written, even down to being “thematically” multiclassed (ie he was a swashbuckling sailor and scoundrel, and took up magical study after an encounter where swordfighting wasn’t enough, and found a manual that tired the esoteric way of dueling he’d learnt in a more directly magical direction. Basically, his Bladesinger is the Spanish Circle made actually magical)

 

[Garthanos]

ERB's Barsoom was tremendously popular for generations, but they managed to out-wait that popularity before finally making a movie.

And named the damn thing in a way that nobody but a definite fan would have recognized and under advertised it... that was a comedy of errors

AND the movie wasnt actually bad either...

 

[Charlaquin]

@lowkey13: Before I answer, are you asking about is or ought?

EDIT: To rephrase, are you asking “do you think the narrative elements of a class matter?” or “do you think the narrative elements of a class should matter?”

 

[Oofta]

I don't think the lore really matters all that much for most classes because it really doesn't help me define my character. Warlocks

And named the damn thing in a way that nobody but a definite fan would have recognized and under advertised it... that was a comedy of errors

AND the movie wasnt actually bad either...

I wouldn't say it was actually good for that matter...

 

[BookBarbarian]

Oftentimes it's better to have a bad movie than a mediocre one. Bad ones at least get talked about.

 

[Garthanos]

Take a stand, man! None of this wishy-washy stuff. Sheesh, one of these days, I need to get me a one-armed Tony, so you stop saying, "On the other hand ..."

I like classes they simplify character concept selection AND help evoke archetypal characters out of the box... that said I want them to be flexible as hell so I can step boldly over all that and make them what I want. I might be needing more hands.

 

[Oofta]

I think a couple of classes benefit from some background and fluff. Warlocks for example aren't a common enough trope. But a fighter? What do you need to know? They fight and umm ... well that's about it. Wizards cast magic. Paladins are full of awesomeness.

On the other hand, I do appreciate that 5E makes an effort to make things come to life. Classes and monsters feel like more that a block of rules text with a picture. I just ignore it and make up my own lore if I feel like it adds anything.

 

[Bigsta]

Back in the day pornographic films had story, and people though that the quality of the story was as important as the quality of . . . everything else. Modern porn has little to no story and is mostly described in terms of the attributes and abilities of the performers in the film.

5e Paladin oaths and Warlock pacts are grognard porn. They exist so people who care about background and fluff have something to . . . hold on to. When a player's paladin takes the oath of the plumber or the cleric worships the god of pizza delivery guys, their DM expects them to maintain the story so as not to break the illusion that their gaming porn is more classy than that low brow modern gaming porn.

Many modern players have no need of story in their gaming porn. All they need to know is what stats and abilities they have, and then they use those stats and abilities to . . . engage in entertaining acts in various locations and in different positions with a differing cast of humanoids of all shapes and sizes.

I am playing a Vengeance Paladin in one campaign and I have absolutely no idea what the oath entails, I just like the abilities associated with the oath. I wanted to make a Sailor Moon-based magical girl melee fighter and paladins make the best melee magical girls (incidentally warlocks make the best ranged magical girls).

 

[Umbran]

Classes are about as beneficial to modern RPGs as tractors driving in the fast lane of a modern highway.

I would think that is more, "Classes are about as beneficial to Tony Vargas' RPGs..."

That whole, "No one true way," and all that. You don't have to like 'em, but... there's a limit to how much you should denigrate them. They didn't kick any puppies or cut off your grandma in the express checkout lane, after all.

I recently found, for example, that both the crunch and fluff aspects of classes are astoundingly good at helping new players quickly latch on to a concept, and make a character, without suffering from the option paralysis that class-less systems tend to produce.

A class gives new players an entry into having a character that keeps the number of uninformed-newbie decision points (both in mechanics and fluff) to a manageable minimum. You can pick up a class, and generally have some confidence that you won't accidentally make a character that absolutely sucks, and you handed ideas of how a character fits into the world that you can assume actually work. In classless systems... you don't have nearly as much assurance.

Do experienced players need a system with classses? Not so much - but even for us, they can speed up character generation immensely, which can be a useful thin if Jojo the Sorcerer just got toasted two rooms into the Baron's castle.

As with most things in RPGs - their use is highly a matter of context.

 

[Kurotowa]

I recently found, for example, that both the crunch and fluff aspects of classes are astoundingly good at helping new players quickly latch on to a concept, and make a character, without suffering from the option paralysis that class-less systems tend to produce.

That's my experience as well. A freeform character creation system is great if you know who you want your character to be and what you want them to do and have enough system mastery to realize those things. Lack any of them and you quickly find yourself in white space with no guides at all for how to avoid bad choices for whatever your priority is, be it mechanical effectiveness or narrative fidelity to a concept.

One thing a class is, is a set of safety rails. They make it harder to build a character who is too far above or below the intended power curve. Another thing a class is, is a mechanical framework. It gives you a set package of abilities meant to fulfill a particular theme and designed to work in synergy with each other. On top of that framework skeleton you add the flesh and skin of lore and flavor. Some options for those will be provided, but they're always a suggestion and not a complete or exclusive list. Variations are possible, especially when you start twisting the more fine detail knobs like Backgrounds and Feats to dial it in exactly.

Some people have the clarity of imagination to handle a freeform system. Others like the clear and simple choices of a class system like D&D 5e. In between you can find those who like their class skeletons more bare bones, with lots of modular pieces to swap in and out so they can custom fit it to exactly their purpose. Something like Pathfinder 2e is meant to appeal to that group.