Do you let magic bow and magic ammo stack?

[green slime]

Damage options for bows include the str rating for composite bows (which is not a bonus so it does stack with any enhancement bonuses).

Which isn't really adding anything, except a way for archers to spend cash in order to try and keep up.

A fighter can still take weapons specialization with a composite bow (with its prerequisite of weapon focus) - and these bonuses apply at all ranges, unlike precision based damage.

But which is not really either here nor there, as every fighter can do it, multiple times if they wish.

Add to that far shot which increases the range by 50% for bows.

The usual encounter range makes that feat next to worthless.

And before someone brings up the multiple ability issue - melee combatants still need to do the same thing with Dex for pretty much all purposes, except for armor (since medium + armors will place a max benefit on it). As a note Str relates to no saving throws, while Dex does as well as initiative and more skills.

Why would anyone bring up MAD?!? The issue was allowing bows and arrows to stack with regards to enhancement bonuses, as they have in every other edition of the game. Was never even considered a problem, until gmw made cheap powerful arrows available to every man and his horse. +3 arrows used to be horded, saved for that very last desperate battle. Ergo, the problem is stacking bonuses?!?

There are really many more options for archers than people think of at the surface. (although not as many as for melee combatants).

The options you describe are pre-encounter options. The melee combatant has a whole other slew of abilities, precisely because he hasn't had to spend every feat he has staying competitive at what he is supposed to be good at. Most melee combatants will have Power Attack. That is an option to be considered every round. Then there is grapple, bull rush, overrun, sunder, trip, and this is just from the core PHB, all which he may or may not have specialised in.

Tactically, the archer gets two choices: full-attack, or shoot-n-scoot. He has two other choices: who to shoot, and which arrow to shoot with.

With the current RAW, its never a consideration as to which level of enhancement to consider against a foe, in an attempt to gauge resource consumption (cost-benefit): the archer's bow is boosted to the cleric's (or wizard's) maximum enhancement bonus for the day. Arrows are considered mostly for the variety of materials the come in, and seldomly for their magical benefits.

 

[Fifth Element]

By the way, now you can be an AA with full BAB thanks to Duskblade.

True, but considering the duskblade's greatest strength is in melee (channeling) and doesn't have area-effect spells (for imbue arrow), it doesn't seem like a good fit.

 

[kigmatzomat]

the big breaker in DnD isn't the ability to hit (it becomes so trivial at high level anyway), it is the amount of damage done with a hit, and there, even with stacking bonuses from arrow and bow, the archer is still trailing the melee character, as he should. The archer makes up for it in that he does not have to move to get there, and therefore gets more full-round attack actions.

My 3.0 campaign has gone from 1st-21st level and has a tempest/dervish melee monster and a pair of archers. The archers do more damage on average. The combination of bow+arrow enhancements to hit means they almost never miss with their last couple of shots. 3.0 capped bow strength mods to +4, but even that isn't a big deal as the combination of bow+arrow enhancement compensates.

The tempest gets 7 attacks a round vs. the archers 5. The tempest wields +4 sunblades, so his damage is about as high as it can get. d10+4 (weapon) +8 (strength) +2 (specialization) =19.5 per hit on his good hand, 15.5 on the offhand. (21.5 and 17.5 vs. evil, IIRC)

The archers have d8+4(str)+4(bow)+d6(elemental)+4(arrow) = 20 damage.

The extra attacks of the tempest are offset by the fact that the archers tend to have an extra +4-6 attack bonus (between magic arrows, point blank, bracers, etc)

Where the tempest comes into his own is against things that his great cleave can fire off more than once a round, or where the AC is so high that it becomes worth it to fire off 21 points of power attack.

Once you add the tactical advantages of ranged combat, no I really don't advise people allow the ammo and weapons to stack.

 

[szilard]

I at least like that his houserule improves the Arcane Archer from it's current status of...completely and utterly worthless.

Better house rule:

The bonus to arrows from the Arcane Archer's Enchant Arrow ability is untyped. The arrows still count as magic weapons for overcoming DR.

-Stuart

 

[Nail]

Once you add the tactical advantages of ranged combat, no I really don't advise people allow the ammo and weapons to stack.

Yup.

If you "run the numbers", you'll find that allowing the stack is a bad idea. If this thread is still going in a few days I'll run the numbers and post them.

 

[kigmatzomat]

After running the 3.0 system for almost seven years, I'm pretty sure the numbers will bear me out. The way the archers sigh wistfully during 3.5 games alone would give me that idea.

I'll stick with 3.0 because I have a "one compaign, one system" rule. It may not be ideal but I'm terrified that an unnoticed rule change will destroy the end-game scenario I've been working towards over the last six years.

 

[Infiniti2000]

IMO, paying 2,000 gp for a temporary benefit, instead of 6,000 gp for a more permanent solution is a perfectly fine choice, and I have no problem with it.

How about 2,000 gp for a temporary benefit instead of 18,000 gp for a permanent solution? 24,000 gp?

 

[green slime]

How about 2,000 gp for a temporary benefit instead of 18,000 gp for a permanent solution? 24,000 gp?

You're still talking about a very limited resource, and at high level, as opposed to an ever-replenishing stream of temporary magical mundane weaponry. In my mind, I'm really not seeing the problem. Not even high level characters can afford to purchase large amounts of powerful arrows. And as I have reduced the effect of gmw it becomes a rare event, to actually utilize powerful bows together with powerful arrows. Which apparently accounts for very little in many other peoples mind.

See, all RAW 3.0 experiences were with gmw being readily available, and therefore buckets of powerful arrows lasting all day, and renewed every morning. They are hardly treated like a resource worth harbouring.

Numbers mean very little when it only reflects part of the story, the actual moment the archer decides to commit his +5 arrow to the fray. Of course, if he has a whole bucket or three, available every day, then of course, stacking may be perceived as a problem.

Gmw makes that choice a no-brainer. My stacking rule, together with gimping gmw allows for the decision to have real meaning.

I still feel the present ruleset "solved" the problem by shooting both the messenger and the piano player. No number crunching involving RAW rulesets is really valid for my campaign either, although I'm sure a few other people may feel the exercise is interesting.

 

[kythri]

MC is 3.0 and RAW so yes, darn it. On the flip side, bows break oh so very easily when huge monsters target them.

What's MC, and where the heck is the search function on this forum? Am I blind, or was it removed?

 

[Hypersmurf]

What's MC, and where the heck is the search function on this forum?

"My campaign" - the more usual form is "IMC", "In my campaign".

The search function is only available to Community Supporters.

-Hyp.