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Do you let magic bow and magic ammo stack?

Shin Okada

Explorer
Nifft said:
AA: "Hey guys, I took a 10 level PrC with annoyingly non-martial prereqs, and now at 16th level, all my arrows are +5!"

Cleric: "Hey guys, I used one of my 4th level spell slots today, and now Bob's arrows are +4."

Wizard: "As above, but a 3rd level slot."

Cheers, -- N

But 50 arrow per spell slot. 15th level AA with rapid shot makes 4 attacks per round. 5, if hasted. Now that 50 arrows are only good for 10 rounds of fighting in total. Maybe good for 2 combats or so. While, carrying 1,000 normal arrows is not a big deal for a 15th-level AA. He should have Quiver of Madam E and Bag of Holding.

I don't call AA a stronger prestige class. But it is an OK class.
 

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Nifft

Penguin Herder
Shin Okada said:
But 50 arrow per spell slot. 15th level AA with rapid shot makes 4 attacks per round. 5, if hasted. Now that 50 arrows are only good for 10 rounds of fighting in total. Maybe good for 2 combats or so.
You're absolutely right. The arcane archer's ten levels are worth more than just one spell slot.

They're worth two spell slots (4 fights/day, 2 fights/spell slot).

Cheers, -- N
 

Shin Okada

Explorer
Nifft said:
You're absolutely right. The arcane archer's ten levels are worth more than just one spell slot.

They're worth two spell slots (4 fights/day, 2 fights/spell slot).

Cheers, -- N

An arcane archer still have full BAB, OK HD (d8), good amount and combination of skills, and 2 good saves. Not bad. Duskblade 6/AA10 is indeed a nice well-balanced character. Especially when you take Practiced Spellcaster feat.
 

green slime

First Post
Infiniti2000 said:
I disagree. You are not fixing the problem in its entirety. Consider a strawman, would you allow a melee fighter to buy arrows and "use them" in all his melee attacks, stacking with the melee weapon (consider such arrows as somehow combining with the melee weapon)?

In other words, think about it in terms of relative differences. Why let an archer pay a lot less for an added bonus than anyone else? (If not arrows in the above hypothetical, think of it in terms of a free action magic weapon wand that grants stacking enhancement bonuses, usable as a non-slotted item.)

The archer is not really paying a lot less than anyone else at all.

Is it better to let the cleric or wizard completely sidestep permanent item bonuses, and have everyone rushing to get +1 toothpicks of swashbuckling, desire, fancy, marvellous, and speed?

I prefer to see there being an opportunity cost involved rather than a simple "no-brainer".

But on to your quandry. I guess I just do not see the problem. If an archer wants to defeat DR/epic IMG, then he needs an arrow with an epic bonus. Those arrows are rather expensive.

Secondly, the melee fighter has often far more interesting options. For instance, power attack, which most will have, ensures that there is little if any wasted BAB over time. The archer in this situation has no other recourse, but to keep plinking away with a near pathetic base 1d6 or 1d8. His only real choice, is "which arrow should I use for this attack?" and "full attack, or scoot-n-shoot?"

The melee fighter gains unlimited access to his Strength bonus from the get go, which an archer does not, without further investment. This was also limited in 3.0 and previous editions.

The archer runs a terrible risk of having his bow sundered if he insists on using it when opponents are even reasonably near (within a move action's distance). Sundering isn't really practible against most magical melee weapons.

Magical arrows are single use items, and even with two or three Quivers of Ehlonna, a high level archer will burn through his arrows at an alarming rate.

Does this mean that I think that archers are weak IMG? No. But it means they are feared opponents, and tend to be taken down quickly, as are the wizards.

You really need to consider the fact that the archer cannot blaze away every battle without consideration of the expense of the resources he is consuming. A +5 arrow costs 1,000 gp, but is really only made in bundles of 50, so single items demand a premium price, and there aren't a lot of them around. Fired from a Mighty +1 Corrosive Long Bow of Speed, it does 1d8 piercing damage +1d6 acid damage +6 +Str. Or 20+str damage maximum, for a single use, (and if the bow is gmw:ed for a single battle, 24+str) as opposed to....(Using 3.5's rules: 19+Str damage maximum, all day. Or the barbarian's raging twohanded power attack, which, at the same level of investment, would be causing so much damage, the archer is completely left in the dust.

I guess I just like my fantasy to include powerful magical arrows, and rules that actually make sense as to why they would be created. The present ruleset disrupts that. There is no reason why any sane item creator would deign to create such a useless item in 3.5.
 
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Nifft

Penguin Herder
Shin Okada said:
An arcane archer still have full BAB, OK HD (d8), good amount and combination of skills, and 2 good saves. Not bad. Duskblade 6/AA10 is indeed a nice well-balanced character. Especially when you take Practiced Spellcaster feat.
I guess you're thinking that you only get one character's resources, and you're trying to fit everything into that one character?

Hopefully you're in a party. If so, you don't have to cast those spells yourself. This is the key. You can borrow two 3rd level Wizard slots and gain the benefit of an 8 level PrC -- all while being a Ranger / Barbarian / Fighter / Warblade / or whatever. Higher BAB, higher HP than an Arcane Archer, thanks to no dipping into a spellcasting class -- and not needing to be an Elf.

By 16th level, you can expect your Wizard or Cleric friend to care more for his 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th level slots than his 3rd or 4th. So long as it won't cost him an action in combat, I suspect he'd be pleased to buff you with such lowly valences.

The 3.5e Arcane Archer is a failure of a prestige class. Taking it is a waste of a very precious resource. (I've done a variant which is IMHO in the spirit of the original, while excising all traces of failure.)

Cheers, -- N
 

Shin Okada

Explorer
Well, while maybe Enchant Arrow is AA's most significant ability, they are still capable combatant without it, with full BAB and 2 good saves. As I wrote before, straight Duskblade 6 or likewise can qualify for AA. So they do not have lower BAB comparing to other pure warriors. And it is good if AA's ability can reduce the need of 3rd or 4th level spell slots which must be used as GMW. Remember, unless extended, those spells still does not lasts 24 hrs. But AA's arrows are always +5, even when the they are attacked on their campsite before dawn when all the buff spells are gone.
 

green slime

First Post
Shin Okada said:
Well, while maybe Enchant Arrow is AA's most significant ability, they are still capable combatant without it, with full BAB and 2 good saves. As I wrote before, straight Duskblade 6 or likewise can qualify for AA. So they do not have lower BAB comparing to other pure warriors. And it is good if AA's ability can reduce the need of 3rd or 4th level spell slots which must be used as GMW. Remember, unless extended, those spells still does not lasts 24 hrs. But AA's arrows are always +5, even when the they are attacked on their campsite before dawn when all the buff spells are gone.

Except there is now even less motivating the archer to get anything but a +1 bow of ultimate tweekage. Another "no-brainer". It should be about making tough choices.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
Shin Okada said:
Well, while maybe Enchant Arrow is AA's most significant ability, they are still capable combatant without it, with full BAB and 2 good saves. As I wrote before, straight Duskblade 6 or likewise can qualify for AA. So they do not have lower BAB comparing to other pure warriors. And it is good if AA's ability can reduce the need of 3rd or 4th level spell slots which must be used as GMW. Remember, unless extended, those spells still does not lasts 24 hrs. But AA's arrows are always +5, even when the they are attacked on their campsite before dawn when all the buff spells are gone.
So if you discount the "free +5" (which is worth very little), he's basically a Ranger without the spells, skill points, or class abilities, right?

Once again, we're talking about 16th level play. Those 3rd & 4th level spell slots are NOT jealously guarded. 8th level spell slots are.

A Duskblade is a melee dude. He's got class abilities that let him do nasty things with spells and melee attacks. It's nice that he's got full BAB, but so what? Your competition is a Ranger who's got spells he can use to be a better archer, who's got bonus feats to be a better archer, and who's got class abilities to enhance his damage output. All this stacks on top of his bow's enhancement bonus. (Greater Magic Weapon on his bow = unlimited +4 arrows for 16 hours. Cast thrice every two days.)

This is, in no small part, a public service message. The Arcane Archer is a bad class. It was fine in 3.0e when +5 was a special number for overcoming DR, and when GMW on your bow stacked with +5 arrows, but in 3.5e it's worth terribly little.

Cheers, -- N
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
green slime said:
Except there is now even less motivating the archer to get anything but a +1 bow of ultimate tweekage. Another "no-brainer". It should be about making tough choices.
Sure, and then Sundering the ultimate tweaker bow is a "no brainer" to anyone who survives their first encounter with the archer.

The tough choice becomes: one uber-bow, or three moderately awesome bows? Choose wisely, my Nightwalkers are hungry.

Cheers, -- N
 

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