Do you let magic bow and magic ammo stack?

[green slime]

Sure, and then Sundering the ultimate tweaker bow is a "no brainer" to anyone who survives their first encounter with the archer.

The tough choice becomes: one uber-bow, or three moderately awesome bows? Choose wisely, my Nightwalkers are hungry.

Cheers, -- N

Yes, well, for the dedicated archer this is true. For those only dabbling, they just obtain one moderately awesome bow, as they drop the bow to draw melee weapons.

I mentioned before the sheer insanity of archery in near-melee.

The third alternative, is of course to use greater invisibility, hide, sneak, deal sneak damage, and rely on your luck to remain unseen. Hopefully, they won't survive too many arrows.

 

[Darklone]

Get a swordbow. Not that easy to sunder.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I'm a rather traditional bow user which means:

Enemy is close enough to strike at your bow ==> You're a bad archer. Get an axe.

Trouble is if (as in 3.0) the archers do more damage than the melees due to their ungodly high attack bonuses, the monsters have an incentive to take out the archers. So after 2 rounds of arrow abuse, most of my sapient large monsters charge the archers, taking quad moves if need be. The act of chasing will reduce the attacks the melees get. Sure, the big guys lose their dex bonus while running, that's really not much of a penalty in most cases. And if they've got trample or overrun, they can maul archers in the process.

 

[Darklone]

Trouble is if (as in 3.0) the archers do more damage than the melees due to their ungodly high attack bonuses, the monsters have an incentive to take out the archers. So after 2 rounds of arrow abuse, most of my sapient large monsters charge the archers, taking quad moves if need be. The act of chasing will reduce the attacks the melees get. Sure, the big guys lose their dex bonus while running, that's really not much of a penalty in most cases. And if they've got trample or overrun, they can maul archers in the process.

As I said: If something survives the barrage on the way in, greet them with an axe in your hand

Or play veiled medusa archers

"Charge 'dem archer chicks!" ... lifting veil ... "BACK! BACK! Get away from them!"

 

[irdeggman]

As I said: If something survives the barrage on the way in, greet them with an axe in your hand

Or play veiled medusa archers

"Charge 'dem archer chicks!" ... lifting veil ... "BACK! BACK! Get away from them!"

So very true.

I had a discussion with a friend (and former DM of mine {i no longer play in his game}) when he said he was creating some feats to make an equivalent of power attack for archers. His justification was that they didn't do enough damage.

I told him that he is missing the true advantage that archer have - range.

Historically (and he is very found of bringing up the English long bowmen and example of how they can obliterate an enemy) relied on getting in many attacks before the melee combatants closeed in.

His eyes lit up and he said you are right - I forgot all about that.

Archers are weak up close but deadly at range - and absolutely devastating across an open field.

That is how they were historically and how their design continued in D&D (including 3.5).

They "need" nothing more. When playing an archer to his full potential you need to tak advantage of their strengths and minimize their weakness.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I don't feel any need for letting two enhancement bonuses stack.

If you allow it, you will soon see clerics start to cast Greater Magic Weapon on both Bow and Arrows and give incredibly high total bonus to archers.

Above is reason why I don't, it quickly gets out of hand.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The archer is not really paying a lot less than anyone else at all.

I don't think I was clear. The relative difference I mentioned is this. To upgrade your +1 longsword to +2, you have to pay 6,000 gp (the price difference). To upgrade your +1 bow to +2, you have to pay either 6,000 gp to upgrade the bow OR 2,000 gp for a limited upgrade (50 arrows).

I have a character concept currently in play that your house rule would affect, for no good reason. He uses launch bolt and not a crossbow to fire crossbow bolts and although he is not high enough level yet, he plans to learn and use GMW. My point in the rebuttal is that your fix is not ideal.

I guess I just like my fantasy to include powerful magical arrows, and rules that actually make sense as to why they would be created. The present ruleset disrupts that. There is no reason why any sane item creator would deign to create such a useless item in 3.5.

That's a fine objective, but certainly there are other options. For one thing, a +1 arrow with +9 additional non-enhancement bonuses on it is definitely a power magical arrow. Alternatively, create arrows with other types of bonuses that stack with enhancement bonuses. That would effectively differentiate GMW without otherwise affecting it. If you also use the houserule that an enhancement bonus is not even needed for other magic to be placed on the arrow, then that would be right up your alley (although I don't personally recommend such a rule, it might be okay in this case, just for ammunition). I'm sure there are other options where "powerful magical arrows" do not strictly mean "+5 enhancement bonus that stacks with a bow's +5 enhancement bonus."

 

[Nifft]

There are good reasons to make magic arrows, but not many types.

- Seeking: can't put that on a bow.

- Bane: too specific; also, match with special material. Silver arrows with Bane (evil outsider) + Bane (lawful outsider) + a Holy bow = win vs. devils. Similar for special arrows vs. demons.

- Law & Chaos: Axiomatic & Anarchic are necessary to penetrate a pair of rare DR types. Keep a few arrows of each on hand -- adamantine Anarchic, cold iron Axiomatic.

A couple of Seeking Bane (fey) cold iron arrows can be handy, too.

Adamantine Bane (construct) arrows will make you every wizard's hero.

Cheers, -- N

 

[green slime]

"Range" is almost trivial, over all editions of DnD. Lets face it, The encounter range is generally very close, as the party is generally "required" to identify a possible foe at rather close quarters. I haven't seen many opportunities for horizon-wide combat. But, maybe that is just me. But I also find with the movement options available to high level characters (that this discussion seems to have focused on), there really is no signifcant range that lasts for more than a round, when you consider dimension door, fly, haste, teleport...

Secondly, the big breaker in DnD isn't the ability to hit (it becomes so trivial at high level anyway), it is the amount of damage done with a hit, and there, even with stacking bonuses from arrow and bow, the archer is still trailing the melee character, as he should. The archer makes up for it in that he does not have to move to get there, and therefore gets more full-round attack actions.

@Infiniti2000
IMO, paying 2,000 gp for a temporary benefit, instead of 6,000 gp for a more permanent solution is a perfectly fine choice, and I have no problem with it. I detest that in 3.5e it isn't even an option. In 3.5, you just don't bother. After 9th level, you just have the cleric and wizard drop a gmw on your gear for the day. They have of course some scrolls prepared as well for the unlikely event that they should actually get dispelled. There is only an extremely low opportunity cost, when compared to a permanent investment.

I've made my case, and although I can agree with nifft that there are still a few possibilities around for powerful magical arrows by the RAW of 3.5 (although not as many as I would prefer), the changes I've made works for us. I'm not going to change to 3.5's nonstacking. Maybe we in our group haven't yet scaled the heights of near-epicdom, and there is some fascinating mystery which eludes me yet, a truth which I will discover. But I haven't seen anything yet to cause me a great deal worry.

 

[irdeggman]

Secondly, the big breaker in DnD isn't the ability to hit (it becomes so trivial at high level anyway), it is the amount of damage done with a hit, and there, even with stacking bonuses from arrow and bow, the archer is still trailing the melee character, as he should. The archer makes up for it in that he does not have to move to get there, and therefore gets more full-round attack actions.

Damage options for bows include the str rating for composite bows (which is not a bonus so it does stack with any enhancement bonuses).

A fighter can still take weapons specialization with a composite bow (with its prerequisite of weapon focus) - and these bonuses apply at all ranges, unlike precision based damage.

Add to that far shot which increases the range by 50% for bows.

Not too shabby really.

And before someone brings up the multiple ability issue - melee combatants still need to do the same thing with Dex for pretty much all purposes, except for armor (since medium + armors will place a max benefit on it). As a note Str relates to no saving throws, while Dex does as well as initiative and more skills.

There are really many more options for archers than people think of at the surface. (although not as many as for melee combatants).