D&D 5E Do you like or dislike Song & Steeal Dragons being demoted to Folklore?

[MarkB]

Just a reminder, the Novels functional ARE setting, and separating the novels from TTRPG canon into there own canon is worse then the Spellplague, completely poorly thought out none sense, and not how the setting was designed or how it evovled over years. As said I disregard what Chris and Jeremy said, which btw contradicted each other.

Sometimes I wish Ed would sue WotC for voiding the contract and take FR back, they aren't being good Stewards of the setting. They learn NOTHING from the back lash to the Spellplague.

How is anyone supposed to steward a product that has over thirty years of history across multiple editions, sourcebooks, magazines and novels? How could you possibly track all of that material well enough to build upon it without contradicting something?

I was first introduced to the Forgotten Realms back in the 3.5e era, by friends who were long-term afficionados of the setting, and even back then it was an incredibly intimidating amount of information to contemplate. I wanted to use it in my games, but just getting up to speed on even a single region sufficiently to run it for players already familiar with the setting seemed insurmountable. And that was just with a few rather forgiving players to accommodate.

Trying to do the same for an entire fanbase of players, well enough to create an official product that will withstand their unsympathetic scrutiny? WotC rightly judged that impossible.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Because it is pretty hard to reconcile the history of Rise of Tiamat and the dragon cult when part of the cannon surrounding the first uprising and the reason for its failure is tied closely around the actions of a Song Dragon (and a Vampire Red Dragon) ....... or maybe that is not cannon any more.

Canon Schmanion. There are no canonical works in 5e Lore except the Monster Manual, PHB and DMG because all other lore is related by in fiction characters. Volo, Mordenkanien, Fizban, etc. Fizban is notorious for selective forgetting of things. Mordenkanien's guide comes to us via Shemeska. For all we know Shemeska could have created the entire thing, though they claim otherwise.
These lore books are as reliable as you want them to be.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Trying to do the same for an entire fanbase of players, well enough to create an official product that will withstand their unsympathetic scrutiny? WotC rightly judged that impossible.

Yep. Once people start arguing that a company should be sued because of HOW they mention some random, unimportant mystical figure in a game, being WotC I would just shrug a say '' Why even try, screw it, we cant win anyway''

 

[dave2008]

Just a reminder, the Novels functional ARE setting, and separating the novels from TTRPG canon into there own canon is worse then the Spellplague, completely poorly thought out none sense, and not how the setting was designed or how it evovled over years. As said I disregard what Chris and Jeremy said, which btw contradicted each other.

Sometimes I wish Ed would sue WotC for voiding the contract and take FR back, they aren't being good Stewards of the setting. They learn NOTHING from the back lash to the Spellplague.

I disagree. As someone who does care a little bit about canon, but doesn't give a lick about the novels, or computer games, or other media really, that is exactly what I wanted to here.

 

[TwoSix]

Don't really care. If they would have had a different kind of stat block, that would have been great. But including them just to hit some sort of check list doesn't matter to me.

Ultimately, everything included in a book is, or can be, folklore for your game, which is what matters.

 

[dave2008]

This is such a non-starter.

The only answer if you care about canon?

Stop, or write your own.

That is not entirely true. There are degrees of caring about canon. I feel I can care about canon without being beholden to it and I am extremely except of canon changes that I like - less so of ones I don't like. However, regardless of the status of "official" canon, I also know my game is the world view we create is the only canon that truly matters.

 

[Maxperson]

For folks who care about an official canon, the best approach to take for 5E might be to basically treat each non-core product as a unique entity, not bound by anything established in any other work. Dungeon of the Mad Mage disagrees with Fizban's on steel dragons because they aren't in the same canon...

I don't think treating each book as separate canon is useful. I think that might have to tweak a few things if there are any contradictions, but that they should otherwise be treated as canon for the setting in question. Dungeon of the Mad Mage obviously being in Waterdeep.

 

[Maxperson]

I consider myself a Shrug-dragon.

"Weak and pathetic little being! I, Shruga Gorath, Lord of Apathy, from the Far Realms will devour you. Or I would if I actually cared enough to leave this place."

 

[grimslade]

I guess I am neutral about them being relegated to folklore in D&D. It doesn't preclude me from having them in my home games if I so desire. I guess I don't understand why WotC felt the need to dismiss them in a sidebar at all. They may want to revisit steel and song dragons in a future project, and now they have lightly bound themselves to this folklore nonsense. I mean, if they wanted to not have Steel and Song dragons in 5E, why mention them at all? I think the sidebar is to acknowledge these dragons without having to stat them up. Fizban's is supposed to be a definitive guide to all things dragon, written by an Avatar of Paladine himself, so not mentioning them at all would have been more of a controversial statement.
As for monstrous/degenerate dragons, DRAGON is a loaded term for D&D. There are almost 50 years of ossification of the beast into Skittles Smaug. If you want to have monstrous dragon-like beasts of myth and legend, you will have to use proto-drake, drake, Great wyrm, or some-such to get the point across to jaded D&D players.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

There is, or should be, an open door, and about the idea some "true" dragons are from "artificial" origin. These species were created by spellcaster humanoids, something like the sorcerer-kings from Athas/Dark Sun. Maybe the first song dragon was a bard blessed by a wish spell because somebody wanted her to save her beatiful voice and musical talent for generations, and the steel dragon was a sorcerer who discovered the trick to live more years thanks special polymorphic magic (and reincarnation), or a special champion blessed by a draconic god from a far place.