Do you make changes with 3e Rogues?

[johnsemlak]

I'm relatively new to 3e, and I'd like to hear feedback from more experienced players/DMs about how Rogues (does anybody still call them thieves, like me?) work in your campaigns?

In many ways, the 3e rogue is much more realistic (realistic fantasy?) and flexible than the 1e/2e versions.

However, I'm a little worried the 3e thief/rogue has lost it's uniqueness. To me, it essentially seems to be a character with a lot more skill points than other characters, which in theory don't need to be spent on rogue-related abilities. Plus, any character can have the core-thief skills now.

Also, the importance of dexterity for rogues seems to have minimized, since many thief skills use other ability checks.

I have thought seriously of recreating the rogue much more along 1e/2e lines, but I wondered if others here in fact think the 3e rogue is much better.

I also haven't seen any of the rogue splatbooks (there aren't many of them, unfortunately), do any of them add sufficient material to make the rogue more unique?

Also, does anybody still give the rogue teh ability to read magic scrolls as per 1e/2e?

Please note, I'm not trying to start a 3e/1e debate here, I have no plans to revert back. I'm just trying to figure out how to best fit rogues into my infant 3e campaign.

Finally, who else thinks we could change the name back to 'thief'?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

However, I'm a little worried the 3e thief/rogue has lost it's uniqueness. To me, it essentially seems to be a character with a lot more skill points than other characters, which in theory don't need to be spent on rogue-related abilities.

Cross class, perhaps, at 2 skill points for one rank.

Plus, any character can have the core-thief skills now.

See above.

Also, the importance of dexterity for rogues seems to have minimized, since many thief skills use other ability checks.

Dex still affects the same exact set of "thief abilities" it did in 1e/2e: Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Pick Pockets... Am I missing anything? Ahh, yes: Disable Device is now based on Int. Switch it back to Dex if you feel better about it.

In my opinion there is actually a greater synergy of Dex in 3e. The rogue needs his Dex for AC (as usual!), uncanny dodge, and evasion (Reflex saves).

Also, does anybody still give the rogue teh ability to read magic scrolls as per 1e/2e?

Use Magic Device (exclusive rogue class skill).

It seems to me you've only scratched the surface of the 3e rogue. It warrants a more serious look before you start tinkering under the hood.


Wulf

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Well, they're just a lot more flexible now. You can still create a pure thief, if you want. Or you can build a politician. Or a little of both. The "charming rogue" (i.e. the guy who steals from you and still leaves you smiling) is now a lot easier to make. Swashbuckling characters are a lot easier to make. The "Thief" is just one character class hidden inside the Rogue, along with about a dozen others. So you don't need to remodel, you just need to be specific in your skill and feat selection to angle towards your idea of a thief.

Personally, I like it Options are my friend.

Also, I may be wrong here, but I think the Use Magic Device skill allows them to use scrolls.

EDIT: Didn't beat me by much, Wulf

 

[johnsemlak]

I was aware that many thief skills are cross/class with other classes.

However, I missed the fact that the rogue has exclusive access to the use magic item skill.

Dex still affects the same exact set of "thief abilities" it did in 1e/2e: Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Pick Pockets... Am I missing anything? Ahh, yes: Disable Device is now based on Int. Switch it back to Dex if you feel better about it.

The search skill is inteligence based as well. though this is realistic, I agree. Anyway, I guess I was looking at a lot of the new skills based on other abilities (again, realistically, I agree).

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Re: Re: Do you make changes with 3e Rogues?

Cross class, perhaps, at 2 skill points for one rank.

Yep. What a lot of 1E grognards miss when they launch into their "3E kills archtypes" crusade is that for the most part, it's really not worth spending your skill points on cross-class skills, and almost nobody does it. MAYBE you'll see a fighter spend some points on Spot or something, but that's about all I've seen.

 

[Felon]

The search skill is inteligence based as well. though this is realistic, I agree. Anyway, I guess I was looking at a lot of the new skills based on other abilities (again, realistically, I agree).

Bear in mind that the ability score that a skill is based on isn't as important as the amount of points that get pumped into it, and with at least twice as many points as the rest of the classes, rogues will definitely have an edge regardless of whether a skil in INT-based or DEX-based.

In 3e, a lot of folks playing rogues try to make sure INT is their best ability score. That's a sharp deviation from previous editions, but it does make sense for a master criminal to be brainy, does it not?

 

[arwink]

Bear in mind that the ability score that a skill is based on isn't as important as the amount of points that get pumped into it, and with at least twice as many points as the rest of the classes, rogues will definitely have an edge regardless of whether a skil in INT-based or DEX-based.

In 3e, a lot of folks playing rogues try to make sure INT is their best ability score. That's a sharp deviation from previous editions, but it does make sense for a master criminal to be brainy, does it not?

Strangely, I've never seen intelligent rogues, unless they're mulit-classed wizards. Most that I've seen actually have had penalties to Int and relied on the bonus points for being human to carry them.

Realistically speaking, I don't think the dex based focus of a rogue has entirely gone away (or is even close to going away). Evasion still reinforces it, as do the ref saves. I've also noticed that a lot of the older abilities, like pick pockets, tend to be ignored in favor of skills like tumble and balance.

 

[Zappo]

You can still create a pure thief, if you want. Or you can build a politician. Or a little of both.

The difference being...?

 

[green slime]

In the games I've played, Int 14 is minimum for the rogues...and regarded as the next most important stat after Dex.

There is one serious drawback to playing rogues: The ability for extremely cheap magic items to squash your advantage in skill points.

There are wonderous magic that grant +10, +15, to skills. These cost next to nothing for high level adventurers. (2000 gp for +10 to Hide)

So to prevent this I altered the price of wonderous items that grant bonuses to skills, and capped them at +10.

 

[johnsemlak]

Bear in mind that the ability score that a skill is based on isn't as important as the amount of points that get pumped into it, and with at least twice as many points as the rest of the classes, rogues will definitely have an edge regardless of whether a skil in INT-based or DEX-based.

Actually, I think Intelligence, along with Charisma, has always important abilities for thieves in D&D. Your point that in the end the advantage in skill points outweights whether a skill is INT or DEX based is well taken though.

In 3e, a lot of folks playing rogues try to make sure INT is their best ability score. That's a sharp deviation from previous editions, but it does make sense for a master criminal to be brainy, does it not?

I did admit in my first post that 3e rules do seem to have a more realistic take on a thief. I also think there was something to be said for the older system which (arguably) put more stress on dex for thieves. (dare I say it promoted the 'thief' archetype?)



Please bear in mind all that I'm not launching a '1e is better' thread. I'm trying to understand the 3e thief/rogue better. The postings on this thread help.