Kanegrundar
Explorer
So do I, however they tend to be darker and more sinister than anything I imagined as a kid.
Kane
Kane
Do you still feel the wonder you had in your childhood games?
- Thread starter Dragonblade
- Start date
DarrenGMiller
First Post
A hearty me too from this corner as well.
DM
DM
Dragonblade
Adventurer
Mythmere1 said:
I did think about this. But in my case, I'm not sure its a matter of rules lite per se. I have the 3.5 rules pretty much mastered. However, there is an issue of prep time. It seemed like in my youth, I could run pretty much any monster or PC right off the fly. Of any level.
Now, I can't really do that. High level NPCs take a lot of crafting before play. Not to mention looking up spells for NPC casters and so on. I'm not sure C&C is the answer though. I want a ruleset that allows me to make 10 different 10th level fighters and have each one be mechanically distinct from the others. Not just in skills, but in fighting ability and maneuvers as well. 3.5 currently serves that need. But the complexity makes it difficult to create such characters on the fly.
I basically want a d20 system thats complex enough to make exactly the character you envision from a mechanical standpoint (i.e. a whip specialist should have special abilities and modifiers that a dual-axe wielder does not and vice versa), but thats fast enough to create these characters on the fly, regardless of level, without just randomly making up their BAB and bonuses. Not just for warriors, but for mages as well. I want a system that lets me run high level mages with all sorts of diverse magical attacks and spells, but that requires minimal lookup during play.
I'm very interested in Mike Mearls' Iron Heroes book. But I don't think its different enough from the standard D&D ruleset. I doubt I can make a 20th level character from his book on the fly. I'm really looking forward to True20 and M&M 2e because it looks like these may meet my needs.
Over explanation of a system or its rules tends to kill it for me. Arguments about such systems tends to do it. Meta-gaming any creature or situation tends to do it. In our quest to backseat DM a game, we tend to kill it with our shiny wisdom and application thereof.
I prefer to sit back and return to that time when I knew little to nothing about the game and just let it unfold. Sure, I sometimes meta-game solutions in my head, but rarely do I impose those thoughts on other around me. I relish the fact that my character knows hardly anything. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I prefer to sit back and return to that time when I knew little to nothing about the game and just let it unfold. Sure, I sometimes meta-game solutions in my head, but rarely do I impose those thoughts on other around me. I relish the fact that my character knows hardly anything. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Orius
Unrepentant DM Supremacist
Andre said:
Maybe that's what we need a d20 publisher to put out, 3.xe's answer to Arduin. Something crazy, insane, totally over the top, and a hell of a lot of fun to play. Would it be great for long term campaigns? Probably not. But it could be a blast to play a totally insane game every now and then that makes no sense, mixes genres like crazy, and has no clue in the slightest what game balance means.
Further Musings on Wonder
I think you may be struggling with the balance of THE GAME vs. THE RULES. Lemme 'splain...
Since 3e came out, it's changed the pattern of how things work. The admonition of "These rules are just guidelines, so feel free to change them as you see fit" got buried in the fine print. Now there's the d20 license which enforces a rules core across every d20 product out there. And once you get the hang of the rules, there's no more wonder in them.
It's the same reason you don't get caught up in driving across town to buy groceries - it's changed from a journey of exploration to a daily chore. You don't pay attention because you trick yourself into believing that you know exactly what you'll see if you bother to look. You save time with this mental short-cut, but you deprive yourself of living in favor of spending your time and attention wishing you weren't doing the chore.
Take that analogy into the gaming realm. You have a game with a cast of characters and a task to be performed. If you don't push beyond the rules that everybody knows about and challenge the players with something they need to figure out, it'll be a mediocre game. It'll be fun, it'll be technically perfect: consistent and realistic and challenging in a "can we beat the bad guy in combat" sort of way, but it will lack the =soul= that makes our first games so special and vivid.
It's the difference between "He cast a Horrid Wilting spell so he must be a 15th level Wizard" and "Ow - how the hell did he do that and how can I learn it?"
So how do we get the wonder back? I've been toying with three ways:
1) New Rules.
This is the industry's default method of making the game new again with every supplement. Springing new feats/spells/skills/items on your players may catch them off their guard, but it's a short-lived buzz. Games tend to turn into a rules-based arms race between GM and players, so it's difficult to maintain in long-term games.
2) Remove The Rules.
That's right. You heard me. Take the rules away from the players so they can't refer to them during the game. This has the advantage of forcing the players' attention away from the rules and onto the game, where it should be in the first place. You can do this a number of ways: run all the numbers yourself and just let the players roll the dice, or let 'em keep their character sheets but ban the PHB during play, or even create the characters without stats and simply invoke Rule Zero to describe combat without using dice. It's potentially more work for the GM, but generally a better experience IMHO.
3) Make The Game Outshine The Rules.
That is, make the story of the game so compelling that the players will reject the rules in favor of playing the game. In practice it's the same as #2 above, but agreed to by all parties beforehand. This approach is tricky at best. It requires a special type of player (Rules Lawyers need not apply), open communication, and a willing suspension of disbelief from EVERYONE involved in the game.
I've been struggling with this for a while as a GM. I feel like I've been getting bogged down in the numbers (NPC stats, etc.) and not enough in the events (what the NPCs do). The underlying story is still compelling enough to keep the players coming back, but I feel bad in letting game sessions bog down with rules discussions...
I've talked to other people in the same boat - the general concensus I've found is that magic just ain't magical any more. 3e magic lacks spark; it's all categorized and modular and sterile. A wizard isn't discovering what's possible and available in the context of the world any more (GAME) - the player is wishing his character could cast the FOO spell as detailed on page X of supplement BAR (RULES). The trick is to change these perceptions and expectations with your players without making the transition so jarring as to turn them off to the whole experience.
You're not alone. And good topic - thanks for starting it!
-w
Dragonblade said:
I think you may be struggling with the balance of THE GAME vs. THE RULES. Lemme 'splain...
Since 3e came out, it's changed the pattern of how things work. The admonition of "These rules are just guidelines, so feel free to change them as you see fit" got buried in the fine print. Now there's the d20 license which enforces a rules core across every d20 product out there. And once you get the hang of the rules, there's no more wonder in them.
It's the same reason you don't get caught up in driving across town to buy groceries - it's changed from a journey of exploration to a daily chore. You don't pay attention because you trick yourself into believing that you know exactly what you'll see if you bother to look. You save time with this mental short-cut, but you deprive yourself of living in favor of spending your time and attention wishing you weren't doing the chore.
Take that analogy into the gaming realm. You have a game with a cast of characters and a task to be performed. If you don't push beyond the rules that everybody knows about and challenge the players with something they need to figure out, it'll be a mediocre game. It'll be fun, it'll be technically perfect: consistent and realistic and challenging in a "can we beat the bad guy in combat" sort of way, but it will lack the =soul= that makes our first games so special and vivid.
It's the difference between "He cast a Horrid Wilting spell so he must be a 15th level Wizard" and "Ow - how the hell did he do that and how can I learn it?"
So how do we get the wonder back? I've been toying with three ways:
1) New Rules.
This is the industry's default method of making the game new again with every supplement. Springing new feats/spells/skills/items on your players may catch them off their guard, but it's a short-lived buzz. Games tend to turn into a rules-based arms race between GM and players, so it's difficult to maintain in long-term games.
2) Remove The Rules.
That's right. You heard me. Take the rules away from the players so they can't refer to them during the game. This has the advantage of forcing the players' attention away from the rules and onto the game, where it should be in the first place. You can do this a number of ways: run all the numbers yourself and just let the players roll the dice, or let 'em keep their character sheets but ban the PHB during play, or even create the characters without stats and simply invoke Rule Zero to describe combat without using dice. It's potentially more work for the GM, but generally a better experience IMHO.
3) Make The Game Outshine The Rules.
That is, make the story of the game so compelling that the players will reject the rules in favor of playing the game. In practice it's the same as #2 above, but agreed to by all parties beforehand. This approach is tricky at best. It requires a special type of player (Rules Lawyers need not apply), open communication, and a willing suspension of disbelief from EVERYONE involved in the game.
I've been struggling with this for a while as a GM. I feel like I've been getting bogged down in the numbers (NPC stats, etc.) and not enough in the events (what the NPCs do). The underlying story is still compelling enough to keep the players coming back, but I feel bad in letting game sessions bog down with rules discussions...
I've talked to other people in the same boat - the general concensus I've found is that magic just ain't magical any more. 3e magic lacks spark; it's all categorized and modular and sterile. A wizard isn't discovering what's possible and available in the context of the world any more (GAME) - the player is wishing his character could cast the FOO spell as detailed on page X of supplement BAR (RULES). The trick is to change these perceptions and expectations with your players without making the transition so jarring as to turn them off to the whole experience.
You're not alone. And good topic - thanks for starting it!
-w
Abstraction
First Post
My SOW is RAW
Kanegrundar
Explorer
Some ointment ought to clear that right up.Abstraction said:
Kane
delericho
Legend
I still get that sense of wonder, but not in the same way, and nowhere near as often.
About seven years ago, I was mourning my sense of wonder. I never expected to enjoy something that was pure and wonderful again. Then I saw "The Nightmare Before Christmas" for the first time, and realised what I'd been missing. I've since felt a similar glee when watching several films, all of them animated 'kids' films: "Aladdin", "The Incredibles", "The Road to El Dorado", "Finding Nemo", "Spongebob Squarepants", and the Transformers series on DVD. There's a lot to be said for just relaxing, and letting these things wash over you. A good kids film is a tonic to the soul, IMO.
In gaming terms, sense of wonder is an extremely rare commodity, but all the more valuable for that. The games I run now are technically infinitely better than the ones I ran game, which were linear hackfests without characterisation or plot. But, they just don't inspire that same innocent glee - most of the time.
There have been exceptions. I ran a one-off game in January. We used 3.5e rules, and a conversion of I6 Ravenloft. I threw everything into that game - atmospheric details, creepy voices, the works. And it was awesome! Not merely because of the group dynamic, which was excellent. Not merely because I have never been better in my handling of rules issues, pacing or the rest of it. And not merely because that module is deservedly hailed as one of the best adventures ever written (we didn't get it even 25% of it finished). There was just an intangible something about that game.
I also ran a game a year ago for a bunch of newbie players (early teens, btw). 3.0e rules (with some slimmed down rules for simplicity), pregenerated 3rd level characters, and a very old-school adventure ("Dungeon of the Fire Opal" - essentially the sample adventure from the DMG filled out for use). This time, the sense of wonder was second-hand. They delighted in choosing characters ("I want Fat Jack, because pirates are cool!"), they entered the dungeon gleefully, and they faced all the dangers with the same terror and excitement that I remember from way back. I was left with two conclusions: if you want to quickly recapture the SoW, run a game for some newbie players, and you should never underestimate the value of a sample game run by a good DM to attract new players to the hobby.
One thing I thought might be cool: take the group on a real adventure. Pack yourselves off on a camping trip, and at the end of the day gather around the camp fire and game. You'd probably need to go for something very rules-lite (don't want to lug around lots of heavy rulebooks), and you'd probably want to minimise dice rolling at night in the dark, but I reckon that could be a lot of fun.
About seven years ago, I was mourning my sense of wonder. I never expected to enjoy something that was pure and wonderful again. Then I saw "The Nightmare Before Christmas" for the first time, and realised what I'd been missing. I've since felt a similar glee when watching several films, all of them animated 'kids' films: "Aladdin", "The Incredibles", "The Road to El Dorado", "Finding Nemo", "Spongebob Squarepants", and the Transformers series on DVD. There's a lot to be said for just relaxing, and letting these things wash over you. A good kids film is a tonic to the soul, IMO.
In gaming terms, sense of wonder is an extremely rare commodity, but all the more valuable for that. The games I run now are technically infinitely better than the ones I ran game, which were linear hackfests without characterisation or plot. But, they just don't inspire that same innocent glee - most of the time.
There have been exceptions. I ran a one-off game in January. We used 3.5e rules, and a conversion of I6 Ravenloft. I threw everything into that game - atmospheric details, creepy voices, the works. And it was awesome! Not merely because of the group dynamic, which was excellent. Not merely because I have never been better in my handling of rules issues, pacing or the rest of it. And not merely because that module is deservedly hailed as one of the best adventures ever written (we didn't get it even 25% of it finished). There was just an intangible something about that game.
I also ran a game a year ago for a bunch of newbie players (early teens, btw). 3.0e rules (with some slimmed down rules for simplicity), pregenerated 3rd level characters, and a very old-school adventure ("Dungeon of the Fire Opal" - essentially the sample adventure from the DMG filled out for use). This time, the sense of wonder was second-hand. They delighted in choosing characters ("I want Fat Jack, because pirates are cool!"), they entered the dungeon gleefully, and they faced all the dangers with the same terror and excitement that I remember from way back. I was left with two conclusions: if you want to quickly recapture the SoW, run a game for some newbie players, and you should never underestimate the value of a sample game run by a good DM to attract new players to the hobby.
One thing I thought might be cool: take the group on a real adventure. Pack yourselves off on a camping trip, and at the end of the day gather around the camp fire and game. You'd probably need to go for something very rules-lite (don't want to lug around lots of heavy rulebooks), and you'd probably want to minimise dice rolling at night in the dark, but I reckon that could be a lot of fun.
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