Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?
- Thread starter Mulkhoran
- Start date
Lela
First Post
drowdude said:
Yeah, but you know how it is... you have to keep repeating yourself unto infinity for those who only bother to read the first post
Don't remind me of that horrible Archer thread. Oi, vey. . .
Creatix said:
boor the heck out of everyone else who doesn't agree with me so that I think I
Creatix said:
Just thought you might have left that part out.
And by the way, I actually do agree with you on the Haste issue. I just don't like the stratagy you employ to, um, weed out, others.
Don't agree with what you say but will defend your right to say it kinda thing.
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Limper
First Post
Haste is fine as is.
I can not fathom how so many have such an issue with this spell... two spells a round at mid to high levels barely keeps pace with the damage delt by the fighter types.
An extra fire ball at mid on up is about 17.5 hps of damage, cone of cold is 26.25... have you seen what the power attacking improved critical fighter can dish out in a round... give him Whirl Wind or Great Cleave and he can hit as many or more foes than the Hasted Wizard.
Its a nice trick but not all that devestating... easily beaten and readily accessable to the enemy... hows it broke?
Now if you want broken look at Summon Moster 1! Lord the Celestial Badger is the most broken beast in the game!
I can not fathom how so many have such an issue with this spell... two spells a round at mid to high levels barely keeps pace with the damage delt by the fighter types.
An extra fire ball at mid on up is about 17.5 hps of damage, cone of cold is 26.25... have you seen what the power attacking improved critical fighter can dish out in a round... give him Whirl Wind or Great Cleave and he can hit as many or more foes than the Hasted Wizard.
Its a nice trick but not all that devestating... easily beaten and readily accessable to the enemy... hows it broke?
Now if you want broken look at Summon Moster 1! Lord the Celestial Badger is the most broken beast in the game!
WizarDru said:
I honestly have no idea if you're mocking me or not. You didn't even use the word 'wanger'. Pants are good, though.
Now I'm confused.
Curse you, "Wizard"Dru, if that is your REAL class! You EVIL TROLL! Misleading me like that. Or you would have, if I knew what I was getting at so I'd know if I was being led away from it, or not.
Now I'm even more confused.
Haste alteration
I've used Haste/Mass Haste as both a LV 8-14 sorcerer, and as a DM for PCs up through 16. This is in a combat-heavy game. Here are my thoughts:
1) Haste is extremely nice, more so for spellcasters than weapons mavens.
2) Haste does /not/, in my experience, double the effectiveness of my sorcerer- the reason being that my sorcerer can not cast metamagics on 2 spells/round, merely 1. By this level, many of my best spells are lower-level spells with 1 or more empowers. It is still a nice bump, and it appears to double the effectiveness of primary spellcasters who need to prepare spells.
3) Mass Haste typically puts my character in line with the rest of the party for direct damage. Without it, my character is weaker in terms of direct damage. Of course, like many spellcasters, my sorcerer's power is usually also expressed in other "buff" spells for the entire party.
4) By a reasonable level (8+) all NPC spellcasters have one chosen or prepared who can do so. This is even more true for mass haste, when it's avalible. Unlike several other posters on this list, I think that the best counter for Haste is Haste, not Slow, nor Dispel Magic. Unless the opponents are particuarly nasty, Dispel Magic (or its varients) does not have a good chance of success. My reading of the rules suggests that Slow counters 1 casting of Haste, not multiple.
5) Many NPCs without access to such a spellcaster will use wands, potions, or items to get the same effect.
As a player, I've looked at the spell, and asked myself "Would I still cast it just as often if there were no AC bonus?"
The answer is "Yes".
So my thought is that the easy way to reduce its power is by removing the AC bonus. It does weaken the spell slightly, without altering its main effect. Is it still overpowered as a LV 3 (LV 6 for mass) spell? Probablly. But, on the other hand, I feel that nerfing it would weaken spellcasters quite a bit, and I don't feel like doing the additional work I would want to do to address the issue of removing it or replacing it with a substantially weakened version. I'm more interested in playing with other pieces of rules.
Frankly, my opinion is that Heal/Harm/Mass Heal is a larger problem than Haste/Mass Haste.
I've never played with Time Stop, but frankly, as a DM, that spell looks kinda scary - on either side.
I've used Haste/Mass Haste as both a LV 8-14 sorcerer, and as a DM for PCs up through 16. This is in a combat-heavy game. Here are my thoughts:
1) Haste is extremely nice, more so for spellcasters than weapons mavens.
2) Haste does /not/, in my experience, double the effectiveness of my sorcerer- the reason being that my sorcerer can not cast metamagics on 2 spells/round, merely 1. By this level, many of my best spells are lower-level spells with 1 or more empowers. It is still a nice bump, and it appears to double the effectiveness of primary spellcasters who need to prepare spells.
3) Mass Haste typically puts my character in line with the rest of the party for direct damage. Without it, my character is weaker in terms of direct damage. Of course, like many spellcasters, my sorcerer's power is usually also expressed in other "buff" spells for the entire party.
4) By a reasonable level (8+) all NPC spellcasters have one chosen or prepared who can do so. This is even more true for mass haste, when it's avalible. Unlike several other posters on this list, I think that the best counter for Haste is Haste, not Slow, nor Dispel Magic. Unless the opponents are particuarly nasty, Dispel Magic (or its varients) does not have a good chance of success. My reading of the rules suggests that Slow counters 1 casting of Haste, not multiple.
5) Many NPCs without access to such a spellcaster will use wands, potions, or items to get the same effect.
As a player, I've looked at the spell, and asked myself "Would I still cast it just as often if there were no AC bonus?"
The answer is "Yes".
So my thought is that the easy way to reduce its power is by removing the AC bonus. It does weaken the spell slightly, without altering its main effect. Is it still overpowered as a LV 3 (LV 6 for mass) spell? Probablly. But, on the other hand, I feel that nerfing it would weaken spellcasters quite a bit, and I don't feel like doing the additional work I would want to do to address the issue of removing it or replacing it with a substantially weakened version. I'm more interested in playing with other pieces of rules.
Frankly, my opinion is that Heal/Harm/Mass Heal is a larger problem than Haste/Mass Haste.
I've never played with Time Stop, but frankly, as a DM, that spell looks kinda scary - on either side.
Numion
First Post
In my games everyone owns at least boot's of speed, so it's not that unbalancing. Encounter seem to go too quickly, so it's customary that the badguys drink potions of haste at the beginning of the fight. If everyone uses it, it all balances out, eh?
I haven't seen an arcane caster that didn't have the spell, though. Or a PC that didn't have boot's of speed. That might be some indicator of the spells power.
So yes, it's broken.
I haven't seen an arcane caster that didn't have the spell, though. Or a PC that didn't have boot's of speed. That might be some indicator of the spells power.
So yes, it's broken.
SpikeyFreak
First Post
My 2 coppers:
First of all, screw all this crap about spell slots being used up. One word: wand.
The argument that a simple slow counters it is flawed. You could use the same argument if they were both 1st level, and I don't think anyone would argue that haste would be over powered at 1st level.
Saying that the bad guys can use it too so its balanced is another flawed argument. When everyone has access to something that is over powered, encounters are over more quickly, which is not much fun. The characters who have it outshine characters who don't. Bad solution.
The people who say that its fine and its the DMs fault for not knowing how to handle it are smoking crack.
Haste is too powerful at 3rd level. The reason that everyone wants it is because its easy to get. If it were 5th level, you couldn't have wands, potions, or scrolls of it (IIRC), and worn items would cost a lot more.
IMHO its way too powerful for 3rd level. Quicken spell requiring 4 levels higher makes it seem pretty obvious to me.
--Anti-Haste Spikey
First of all, screw all this crap about spell slots being used up. One word: wand.
The argument that a simple slow counters it is flawed. You could use the same argument if they were both 1st level, and I don't think anyone would argue that haste would be over powered at 1st level.
Saying that the bad guys can use it too so its balanced is another flawed argument. When everyone has access to something that is over powered, encounters are over more quickly, which is not much fun. The characters who have it outshine characters who don't. Bad solution.
The people who say that its fine and its the DMs fault for not knowing how to handle it are smoking crack.
Haste is too powerful at 3rd level. The reason that everyone wants it is because its easy to get. If it were 5th level, you couldn't have wands, potions, or scrolls of it (IIRC), and worn items would cost a lot more.
IMHO its way too powerful for 3rd level. Quicken spell requiring 4 levels higher makes it seem pretty obvious to me.
--Anti-Haste Spikey
Piratecat
Sesquipedalian
The general rule for "is a spell balanced?" is "is it clearly superior to other spells of its level?" In my experience, haste is too effective a spell for arcane casters not to take as soon as they can. By that criteria, then, I certainly think it's overpowered.
I've removed the AC bonus, myself. Even with that gone I personally think haste should be a level higher than it is. It will be interesting (and certainly contraversial) to see what the revised rules do with it.
I've removed the AC bonus, myself. Even with that gone I personally think haste should be a level higher than it is. It will be interesting (and certainly contraversial) to see what the revised rules do with it.
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