Do you think it makes sense to target AdvClasses to base classes?

[Plane Sailing]

Ok, its a rubbish subject line, I'll edit it if I can work out how to say it better.

Basically, do you think it makes sense to have the prereq for advanced classes set to make it easier to enter them from one (and only one) basic class? Why should Strong heroes be the only ones able to get quickly into soldier or martial artist? Fast heroes be the only ones to get quickly into infiltrator or gunslinger?

What would be the impact on the game if Adv class prereqs were loosened so that in each case there were two or three ways into the class at 4th level (instead of only one)?

 

[DanMcS]

Not a whole lot of impact. You could do it to the martial artist pretty easily, by making the prereqs a +2 BAB, Combat Martial Arts, Defensive Martial Arts, and (Tumble 6 or Jump 6). That's a 3rd level fast or strong hero, or you could do strong2/fast1 or some other combo.

For many advanced classes, this is already the case. You can get into Mage, Field Scientist, and Techie them with your first level of smart, second level of something else (often fast or strong), and your third character level of smart again if you get the skill points worked out correctly. Just skimming, it looks like you could do it with most of the advanced classes in the book, actually. The guy I'm playing now is smart1/fast1/smart2/fast2 (in that order, I mean), and has qualified for both Mage and Gunslinger, he'll probably go gunslinger next. He was qualified for mage at 3rd level, but I decided not to go that way yet.

 

[takyris]

I dunno. I don't think it's absolutely vital, but I do think that the designers put it in there for a reason. Sure, lowering many of the requirements could make it more accessible to other classes, but then what's the benefit to taking the other classes?

Everybody seems to hate the Strong Hero or think that it's a boring class with nothing interesting about it. Personally, I find "best attack progression in the game and fastest entry into Soldier and Martial Artist" very interesting. If you lower the BAB pre-req so that anyone can get in after third level, that takes away one of the few differentiating factors that Strong Heroes had going.

The same is true for other advanced classes. They're all perfect for one class, fairly easy for other classes, and a pain for a few. I think that that was part of the balancing process.

-Tacky

 

[Crothian]

I like the way it's done. Since each base class has at least a pair of advanced classes hooked to it I think it makes it okay. Plus it's not that big of deal to wait till 5th or even 6th level before taking an advanced class.

 

[jaerdaph]

Personally, I like the way AdCs work now - anyone can get in eventually, but some basic classes let you in earlier. It makes the basic classes more distinct.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I wonder why they decided to link them though? I can see it as a conceptual idea which helped them in the development process ("hey, two AdvC per base class!"), and also to help guide people new to the game in their character development (by giving two different but obvious routes to take from any given base class).


I might have a detailed look at the various AdvC and see how quickly they could be entered by routes other than the obvious one. My gut feeling is that only the Soldier and Martial Artist really stick out because of the BAB requirement which can only be met quickly by Strong heroes. Daredevils (for instance) need BAB +2 and concentrate 6, drive 6. Now you could have a rural Tough, who gets drive as a permanent class skill, and gets concentration as a Tough class skill. He'll take 4 points in each. He could now take two levels of Strong (for his +2 BAB) and spend 2 cc skill points on concentration and 1 skill point on drive each level - ta-da! he's qualified at 3rd level.

Most of the AdvClasses have rank6 in two or more skills, and the cross-class skill mechanism plus the class skill cap means that it is possible to start in a key class then take other levels somewhere else to make it in.

I wonder how it would compare if Soldier needed BAB 2+ and 6 ranks in Knowledge(tactics) and Swim, while Martial Artist needed BAB 2+ and 6 ranks in Jump and Climb (for the sake of argument). This would still be easiest to get in from the Strong class, but it would be possible to get into them by a combination of Strong + other classes at 4th level too.

Cheers

 

[Vigilance]

I like the idea of "linking", but I don't see why each class is led to by one or two stats.

For instance, in my tweak of the martial artist for Blood and Fists, based on my own experience with the martial arts as much as anything, I see MANY different paths leading to the martial arts.

If you're a heavyweight boxer, Karate Master, Sumotori, etc. I would say Strong or Tough, but TaeKwonDo would likely be Fast, and Aikido would probably be a Dedicated Hero.

This was why I lowered the BAB to +2 in BNF. The classes I created are no HARDER for a Strong or Tough hero to make, but they are a little more doable for Fast and Dedicated heroes.

I suspect the two advanced classes per basic class idea was a way of balancing the basic classes. If one basic class had one advanced class, while another had four, you'd be skewing the game.

That being said, with new products coming out for Modern all the time (I have one in editing, one in the draft stage, and one in the concept stage), it isn't going to *stay* 100% balanced.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, you can reach every advanced class at 4th level if you take the right base class, but you can do it at higher levels if you took the wrong -
I like it, and I see no need to change it.

It increases the chances that you try multiclassing, which makes much more colorful characters (at least I think)

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Plane Sailing]

Well, you can reach every advanced class at 4th level if you take the right base class, but you can do it at higher levels if you took the wrong -
I like it, and I see no need to change it.

It increases the chances that you try multiclassing, which makes much more colorful characters (at least I think)

Mustrum Ridcully

If you check out my hypothesis above though, you will note that while most AdvC are available equally quickly with some kind of multiclassing, soldier and MA are not... there is no way to get them by 4th without going 100% strong.

To my mind this *discourages* multiclassing, which is a bad thing.

 

[Vigilance]

Also, when you look at the Martial Artist, I came to the conclusion that a 1st level Martial Arts master was a first Dan Black Belt.

I have no problem with a first Dan Black Belt having a +2 BAB. Most Black Belts have never been in a REAL fight.

It was just a convenient way for me to root the MAM in the "real" world. First Dan Black Belt- common, and probably not extraordinarily tough compared to say an experienced infantryman (Soldier) or a Secret Service Agent (Bodyguard).

10th level Master, (10th Dan Black Belt) almost unheard of, and not someone you would want to mess with in most circumstances.