D&D 4E Do you think WotC rebooting Forgotten Realms for 4e would be a good idea?

[freyar]

Most good civilizations destroyed? What good civilizations are destroyed? Where are you seeing this? Luskan is destroyed and Sembia was never a 'good' civilization.
Major Evil Empire around? You mean like Thay? Mulhorand? Calimshan? A Zhent influenced Moonsea?
Aboleth infested? The 'coming of the aboleths' doesn't sound infested, just another foe to the mix. Most likely a bigger player in the Underdark than the surface.

This is basically all stuff revealed in the preview chapter for The Orc King. I actually mean Netheril, which is a lot bigger than the Zhent influenced Moonsea. And additionally, the recent portrayal of Thay, Mulhorand, and Calimshan has hardly been overshadowing a huge chunk of the North. As for the aboleths, I wonder why Drizzt would bring them up in a big litany of ills if they didn't have some relatively important impact on the surface, since that's where he lives. Look, we don't have a lot to go on, but I'm basing what I'm saying on the feel of the little information we have.

As far as good civilizations destroyed, again in The Orc King preview there is a bit about how they've only been able to maintain a civilization in the North with the help of the orcs.

Anyway, I know that I may be catastrophizing, but, since WotC has indicated that it's willing to toss out the longstanding default cosmology for 4e, I'm not too optimistic. I also realize that I may sound a bit snarky here, but it's not my intent. I'm feeling a bit touchy by the amount of anti-FR sentiment that I've seen on EN World in the last few days.

The 1E Realms were very Points of light-ish. Lots of fantastic and beautiful cities and city states with very viable monster populations, evil cults and bandits existing all around them and sometimes in them. You needed caravan guards to protect trade. You needed adventurers to go to the Mere of Dead Men because no one else would. The Silver Marches were a dangerous place where travel between Silverymoon and Everlund was risky and dwarves rarely left their mountain citadels. PoL would never be a big change for my campaigns because the Realms fit that frame work already.

Now this is very interesting. I think we may have a bit of different interpretation of Points of Light (of course because of incomplete information). My understanding is that the default PoL means that basically no one travels in between towns even just a few hours apart. In other words, that there isn't really trade at all. I absolutely agree with you about the presence of danger, but I think the quantity and quality (for example, in FR, you know that the worst danger in the Evermoors is trolls, at least until recently vs the idea that dangers are unknown in PoL). Thanks for your response to me!

 

[I'm A Banana]

Sacred cows have been sacrificed.

4e is covered in blood and laughing maniacally and telling you you're totally going to love this newfangled monotheism.

4e is pulling a Zeus on 3e's Cronus, nicking it's nads and setting up something almost totally new.

 

[Samuel Leming]

As I post this there have been 290 votes. Of these 142 have been in favor of reboot, 89 against & 59 just don't care. Though this is anything but a scientific poll, this should give you an idea as to why WotC is making drastic changes. We can see that more people are interested in checking out the setting if it's cleaned up then are currently happy with it.

Sorry, but the Realms have a reputation. It's debatable if that rep is warranted, but you can't say it's not there. How do you fight a rep? If you were WotC would you want to go after these extra sales?

Of course there are right ways and a wrong ways to go about doing a reboot. I hope WotC produces a good product. It's too early to judge just from these little snippits. I'll be checking it out next year. If it's good I'll pick it up. If I didn't know about the reboot, I wouldn't have been planning to check it out at all. The Forgotten Realms indeed.

Sam

 

[Kae'Yoss]

As I post this there have been 290 votes. Of these 142 have been in favor of reboot, 89 against & 59 just don't care. Though this is anything but a scientific poll, this should give you an idea as to why WotC is making drastic changes. We can see that more people are interested in checking out the setting if it's cleaned up then are currently happy with it.

Interested in checking out. They trade proven, loyal fans for people who might look at it, and, should they do, might stick with it.

If I didn't know about the reboot, I wouldn't have been planning to check it out at all. The Forgotten Realms indeed.

On the other side, It's quite likely I won't bother even checking it out. Even if it might be a good new world, it won't be the world that was my favourite. And I don't think Wizards can beat Paizo at world- and adventure building. I would have had spare cash for the Realms, but if it's just another fantasy setting, it can't win against the Pathfinder Chronicles, especially since the PC will get great adventure paths. And I won't pay for two fantasy settings if there isn't something special about the other one.

 

[Samuel Leming]

Interested in checking out. They trade proven, loyal fans for people who might look at it, and, should they do, might stick with it.

Are they really proven, loyal fans if they're going to bail over a couple of early snippets? Let's see how it turns out.

Sam

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Are they really proven, loyal fans if they're going to bail over a couple of early snippets? Let's see how it turns out.

Sam

If those snippets are "The (old) world ends. The planes fall apart. Half the deities die. Half the Realms are in ruin", then "bailing" over them is perfectly justified.


They (are supposed to) know how powerful a first impression is. I'd think that they wouldn't give the wrong one if it can be avoided.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Are they really proven, loyal fans if they're going to bail over a couple of early snippets? Let's see how it turns out.

Clearly not. It's typical knee-jerk "omg change!" reaction, as Ed Greenwood himself rather more politely suggested. More to the point, I suspect most "OMG I QUIT THE REALMS 4EVAR!!!!911!" posters on both these and other boards will pick up the new FRCS, and give it a chance, despite currently hyperbole.

It seems to me that WotC are a cautious company, by nature. They are careful to avoid flops, non-selling products and so on. They're not perfect, but they're pretty good at it. For them to even consider rebooting the Forgotten Realms, there needs to be a pretty good reason. I think we can guess at it pretty easily:

The current FR products are not selling as well as they could be.

I know there's a "current FR" fanbase that likes to go on about how "loyal" they are, and how terribly cheated they feel by significant changes to the Realms, but I strongly suspect (and this is merely opinion, of course), that there are either not actually that many of them, or that they're not actually buying all the FR products. I think that WotC is looking at the early 3E FR sales figures (which included people like me), and/or the late 2E FR sales figures on TSR's books, and wondering where, exactly, all these people have gone. I know several "ex-FR" GMs at the moment, who quit FR at some point in 3E, most of them early on. Exact reasons vary, but whilst the 3E FR has arguably "improved" (especially lately), it's going to take major change to get these people, and the long-lost 1E/early 2E FR players, back into the fold.

3E FR was merely a continuation of 2E FR, love or loathe it. Clearly, for this sort of change to happen, a lot of people had to have loathed it, or for WotC, a company who do not act without market research, to believe that. So now we get 4E and big FR changes - One thing I know for sure is, just as Kae'Yoss will be point-blank refusing to buy the setting no matter how good it is, simply because it "his favourite" anymore, I know I, and at least a couple of others I know IRL will almost certainly be buying the new FRCS, and seeing how it goes from there.

Kae'Yoss - Whether you feel your bailing is "justified" or not is rendered meaningless by your assertion that you will not buy it even if it is a very good setting. Would you even be running it if they continued to release the FR, considering how wildly superior you consider Paizo's products (perhaps with good reason)? Do you run it and buy the books for it now, or just casually buy them out of vague interest?

 

[BlackMoria]

Sorry, but the Realms have a reputation. It's debatable if that rep is warranted, but you can't say it's not there. How do you fight a rep? If you were WotC would you want to go after these extra sales?

The problem here is this. It is not a given that the changes will translate to extra sales.

Do a poll on what ticks most people off about the Realms and you will find the majority opinion is the uber NPCs and the novels.

The changes to the Realms isn't necessarily going to change the opinion of those folks because:

1) they will continue to do novels

2) we don't know just how much the uber NPCs 'got cleaned up'.

What is know is that Drizzt and Elminster 'survive' the transition. We know nothing about the other uber NPCs. If you are a person who absolutely loathes Drizzt or Elminster, what possible reason would you have to buy 4E FR products? The reasons for your dissatisfaction hasn't been addressed.

I suspect the reality will probably be this:

For the Realms fan, the changes will be too much.

For the non-Realms fans who have a distain for the Realms already, the changes will not be enough.

Unless WOTC properly identifies what aspects of the Realms is keeping people away and addresses that, then these changes will not translate to more sales for WOTC. Making changes in the hopes that the final product has appeal to a majority of people is rolling the dice and gambling you get it right.

 

[Sun Knight]

Maybe they should just retire the Realms, like they did with Mystara, Ravenloft, Planescape, and Greyhawk and focus on a new setting that is designed and written for 4e specifically. They could keep Eberron specific for 3.5e, and perhaps have a second 4e camapign a year and half later.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

"WotC are stupid and imho probably have nfc what they're doing with the FR, but hey it's possible the won't screw up I guess."

Is that an unfair summary of your post? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and I think you're underestimating WotC. Have they had any large scale, important product failures? I've not noticed any. Remember, WotC aren't TSR. WotC do a hell of a lot of market research, and they don't listen to the fans, they listen to the people who buy, and who can be convinced to buy, WotC-made D&D products, who are, it seems to me, very different people to "the fans".

You also seem to think everyone is either:

1) Current FR lover.

2) Loathes the FR and laughs at everything about it.

When in fact there is a large-ish amount of:

3) Likes the FR, used to play there, but gradually lost interest in 2E/3E.

I don't think WotC would take a risk like this without good reason. They undoubtedly know the consternation the 4E Realms stuff so far has caused, and undoubtedly predicted it (I could have, so I don't believe WotC would have failed to - notice that no WotC employees have appeared anywhere to "apologise" for the new FR or make "it's not that bad!" comments about it). I seriously doubt a sample chapter full of such "explosive" info got up there "by accident", either. So it's a risk, but it's far more of a calculated risk than you appear to portray. Remember - WotC aren't TSR.

mod edit: Please don't make summaries, restatements, or paraphrases look like actual direct quotes.