Dodging arrows

[VannATLC]

I generally assume that only things that do enough damage to drop you in one hit, and by drop, I mean actually dead.. kill you.

0 hitpoints, and negative hitpoints, are indicators you've unlikely to survive without external help... But you might. There's a chance, a good one... but you might not, as well.

*shrug* works for me.

 

[Ian O'Rourke]

I believe ray-like spells are as slow as Star Trek phaser, so you can just step slightly to the side.

I jest.

 

[lukelightning]

Armor Class is physically withstanding a weapon's blow, whereas Reflex is the ability to dodge an attack.

So why not dodge arrows, as the original poster posits? Why not dodge everything?

 

[ThirdWizard]

House Rule:
Make attacks against Reflex. If that hits, make the same attack against AC. If you hit AC, you have hit them and penetrated their armor, do damage. If you miss their Reflex, they dodged the attack. If you hit Reflex, but missed AC, then you couldn't get through the armor.

Very simulationist. Sucks for gamism, though.

 

[Keenath]

I've only seen this with two monsters: the immolith and kobold slinger. Have you seen any others with Ref higher than AC?

If it's only these two, I think chances are pretty high that they're just stat block errors. WotC has been known to make one or two of those.

It was the Slinger I noticed -- as I said in the original post, I was running some 1st level dudes against a few bunches of kobolds and human highwaymen.

So why not dodge arrows, as the original poster posits? Why not dodge everything?

Right, that was my original point. It's not me asking what AC represents, but rather -- if you can dodge a bolt of magical force, why is dodging an arrow or spear somehow different such that you have a WORSE time trying to avoid them?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Right, that was my original point. It's not me asking what AC represents, but rather -- if you can dodge a bolt of magical force, why is dodging an arrow or spear somehow different such that you have a WORSE time trying to avoid them?

Then the answer is simple: The reason they are different is because sometimes it is fun to have a monster that is easier to hit for the fighters than it is for the wizard.

It doesn't have an in game explanation as it is a rule in a game.

This line of thinking will cause you not to enjoy 4e at all, I can assure you.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

So why not dodge arrows, as the original poster posits? Why not dodge everything?

Good point! Why not eliminate AC and make armor as DR at armor+1/2 level?

The designers unfortunately didn't want to abandon all of the sacred cows. Personally, I like the idea of armor as DR and adding to Fortitude. We houseruled it whenever we made our hybridized version of D&D from the Star Wars Saga ruleset.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The problem of Reflex and AC being unrelated actually existed in 3E, too, but I think it was more noticeable in d20 Modern, where people are throwing grenades and automatic weapon fire, both attack types against armor should protect.

Good point! Why not eliminate AC and make armor as DR at armor+1/2 level?

The designers unfortunately didn't want to abandon all of the sacred cows. Personally, I like the idea of armor as DR and adding to Fortitude. We houseruled it whenever we made our hybridized version of D&D from the Star Wars Saga ruleset.

They discussed this online a few months ago.
They tried it, but it proved to hard to balance.
And I've seen a few non-d20 games with armor as DR, and they are always unsatisfying from my gamist perspective.

Here are some points where you can get into trouble:
- Care about lightly armored archetypes? They suck against weapon damage.
- Care about mundane characters? They suck against spell casters that ignore your armor.
- Care about lightly armed archetypes? They suck against heavy armor
- Don't like usefulness/effectiveness of classes changing widely depending on monsters and NPCs employed? (Remember Rogue vs Undead compared to Rogue vs Humanoid? Think about Heavily Armored Warrior vs Spellcasting monsters to Heavily Amored Warrior vs weapon wielding monsters)
- Monsters with high damage output per hit are more effective then monsters with mutliple attacks, but lower damage output. (A problem I noticed in Iron Heroes)
It might be possible to balance this stuff, but it might also be just not worth your time.

Aside from that, comparing roll vs DC is always easier then subtracting numbers from rolls.

But I suppose there will be people trying to houserule Armor = DR, and maybe someone of them has a clever tweak.

 

[tafkamhokie]

For a real-world comparison from the martial arts, consider this:

In tournament point-fighting, the objective is to make contact with a properly executed technique against a valid target area (front of torso, head, or kidneys). I would compare this to a Dex vs. Reflex attack.

In boxing, the objective is to bludgeon your opponent to unconsciousness. I would compare this to a Str vs. AC attack.

In both cases, you have unarmed, unarmored combatants squared off against each other. Yet the defensive tactics used in both cases are dramatically different. In point-fighting, you need to prevent contact...so you dodge, block, bob and weave, and try to get out of the way of incoming attacks. Reflex defense.

In boxing, you guard your vital areas and twist your body to minimize the damage of a hit, but you are getting hit all the time. You are still using your Dex to defend, but it is not pure dodging to avoid the blows altogether. You also use your gloves, your arms, and your shoulders to deflect blows and minimize their damage, much like armor would in a lethal fight with weapons. AC defense.

When you are trying to dodge something to prevent contact, you employ one set of defensive skills. When you are trying to minimize the damage from oncoming blows, you employ a different set of defensive skills.

And I have known plenty of people who are elite point-fighters (i.e. VERY high reflex defense) who wouldn't last 90 seconds against a competent boxer.

Similarly, I can certainly see a rogue being good at the bob and weave, duck, dodge, hop, parry, etc. style of fighting where he is very hard to get in a clean touch with a ray attack. But subject the same rogue to an onslaught from a skilled fighter who knows how to limit your battlefield movements, and he will get pummeled to death because he only knows how to dodge and not how to minimize damage.

 

[keterys]

A human wizard will almost always have a higher reflex than AC since they get a +1 to defenses, but not AC, and not like cloth is adding any base to AC.

It's a rare situation, but it happens.