D&D 4E Does 4E have disarm?

[Dykstrav]

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm always amazed by how quickly I get responses to rules questions here on ENWorld and how in-depth those responses are. The fact that Ari Marmell chimed in is a pleasant surprise too--I can't think of any other industry where the professionals are so involved with the fan base.

I'm a bit frustrated at the 4E rules in situations like this. I understand that it's designed to be a fun game to play, but the fact that it's something that could possibly be a viable real-life tactic is limited to a class-based power certainly breaks my immersion and sucks the fun out. I want to include a disarming enemy on account of some of my players actually got the Quick Draw feat and carry backup weapons in the event that they are disarmed, and I wanted to make those choices valuable. None of us realized that disarming didn't really exist in 4E until now.

I dig Ryven's idea, it seems the most consistent. But I also dislike the idea of forcing character behavior through a die roll.

I've got a week to iron out the way it works though.

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

"I dislike the idea of forcing character behavior through a die roll"

I thought about this myself at first, but then it occurred to me, aren't we really forcing most combat behavior through a die roll? You don't roleplay being dead - a die roll (or series) determines it. Unless you're playing Amber, your roleplaying doesn't determine when you hit - a die roll does. Aren't Diplomacy checks forced NPC behavior via a die roll? This isn't much different.

That being said, consider putting forth an honest caveat "Here's how you disarm.. you make an Intimidate check (I like my idea - or whatever); the guy surrenders and is out of the fight UNTIL he gets another weapon." The 'surrender' is only conditional for the moment, much like being slowed until the end of the encounter. Heck, you could have the surrender count only until the end of the encounter if you wish - the foe pulls out another weapon and gets a surprise round or whatever. Most normal foes can surrender and be effectively dead. The BBEG can functionally 'surrender' until a more effective time. As long as your players understand this, I think it would work out alright. A die roll only describes what the character does RIGHT NOW, not his or her motivations or later plans.

BTW, RTP FTW!!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

In the realms book Jeraxle has a disarm attack...I am AFB so I can't say how it works

 

[Kordeth]

All right, I thought I knew how I was going to answer this until I looked it up to make sure. I was going to talk about opportunity attacks, but apparently picking up an item doesn't provoke. I guess I was still thinking 3.5.

All right, I'll admit that you've made a fair point. I'd still probably prefer to allow the disarm attempt, but house-rule that picking up an item from the ground while threatened draws an OA (which the target can use to try to grab the object back), just because I really dislike telling the PCs that they can't even try something. (Though as I said, I'd impose a penalty, so their odds of success aren't high to begin with.)

And yeah, at that point, it's more complex than it's worth. But like I said, I hate just saying "No, you can't even attempt it..."

Easier to just say a disarmed weapon lands one square away (i.e. in a square not adjacent to the disarmer). If you look at movie swordfights, when someone gets disarmed, the sword rarely drops right at his feet--it goes sailing through the air five or ten feet, and usually ends up dramatically embedding itself point-down in the ground or a convenient table while making a dramating "schiiiiiiing" noise.

Anyway, point is, if the sword is a square away, the bad guy can't follow up by immediately picking it up, because he needs to move five feet and grab the weapon. So, okay, kobolds make dangerous disarmers, but other than that...

 

[RefinedBean]

Of course, if it's an entire mob of kobolds on one initiative, the disarmer's hombres can run over, cackling with glee, and throw your hard-earned Vorpal Holy Symbol of Reaping Harvest into some lava.

This happened to me in that much-lauded module, A Bunch of Kobolds Next to a Bunch of Lava, and Maybe Some Sort of Shrine.

 

[Danceofmasks]

*shrug*

I don't believe that it is still an attractive prospect in most circumstances, not with all the penalties and caveats involved.

Then you haven't looked at it from the mobs' perspective.
They could attack for a small fraction of the character's health, or they can have say a 10% chance to remove the PC's ability to do anything meaningful for the rest of the combat.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Then you haven't looked at it from the mobs' perspective.
They could attack for a small fraction of the character's health, or they can have say a 10% chance to remove the PC's ability to do anything meaningful for the rest of the combat.

Wasting a turn in combat for something that has a tiny chance of success--and that, even if it succeeds, probably isn't going to impede the enemy for that long--is not a tactically sound decision.

You keep talking as though taking away the weapon is a major impediment for the entire fight. But...

A) If it fails, and there are OAs involved (as there would be in our hypothetical scenario), you've opened yourself up to extra damage--and your chances of failure, and thus of extra damage, are much higher than your chances of success. Plus, even if you succeed, if the OA allows a chance to re-grab the weapon (again, as we've established it would in our hypothetical), you may have completely wasted your turn.

B) Even if it succeeds, your enemy has various possible ways of getting his weapon back--or, at worst, of getting his allies to concentrate on that foe until he drops, then retrieving his weapon and getting back into the fight against the others.

C) I have never seen any character at high levels--and if we're talking about +5 or +6 weapons, we're talking about high levels--that didn't have at least one potent backup weapon. Sure, it's not as powerful, but suddenly, we're not talking about a difference of +5 or +6; we're talking about maybe +3.

D) Assuming you have even slightly tactically-minded PCs, it doesn't usually take more than half a dozen rounds (IME, anyway), for any given non-elite and non-solo enemy to fall. So if each enemy has only 6 or fewer rounds of action, on average, wasting one on something with less than a 20% chance of success, to impose what likely amounts to either a temporary or a small penalty, simply isn't tactically sound.

Again, it's gotten quite complex at this point, and I don't see it happening that often. But the notion that disarming is still a solid tactic even with a huge penalty and a potential OA just doesn't ring true that often in my experience. Are there some situations where it's the best bet? Probably; but they're in the minority, IME.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Disarm my swordmage/Wizard...throw his sword in Lava...now you just made him mad...oh and gave him a lava covered sword

 

[OSD]

Here's my house rule on disarming
1) You have to have one of these conditions met or it's Str/Dex -10 vs Fort/Reflex (whichever is higher)
Target is prone
You have combat advantage against the target (dazed, blinded, etc...)
The target is bloodied
The target is grabbed by you

It's Str/Dex -5 vs Fort/Reflex whichever is higher if a condition is met.

You can automatically disarm a helpless/unconscious/dying creature with a standard action if you are adjacent or occupy the same square as the creature.

My NPCs-Mobs only have only disarmed my PCs for three reason.
1) It's part of the NPC-Mobs characteristic and is intelligent enough to do it.
2) The NPC-Mobs does not want to deal lethal damage to the PCs.
3) One of my PCs got a hold of an item that the NPCs-Mobs does NOT want to give up and they do everything in their power to get it back.

Disarming does not break the game in anyway since grabs and improvised attacks can still be used. The book encourage players to think more than just the powers and the rules. Once your players learns to improvise, it will be a lot more fun and hilarious (maybe a little gruesome too). Ever seen a ranger armed only with a length of rope and do some really scary stuff? Grabbed the goblin, got his ally to flank, and then rope garrote. Took me a while to figure out how to make it work mechanic-wise until I remember a bugbear doing the exact same thing. Disarm != target become useless, well, it does if the PC has a int score of 4 or something. I had a warlock who stuffed a small creature into a sack because the creature have resistance to hit attack after readying his bedroll, grabbed the creature and then do the stuffing, follow by an athletic throw into river. Took him 4 rounds, but he removed a threat where he would have dealt low single digit damage had he just attacked it. Disarm should neither be encourage or discourage, but making the PCs improvise and think "WTF!? What do I do now? That thing is going to eat my face!" helps with the immersion factor. You can also throw in some XP or some other rewards for the improvisation.

 

[Staffan]

In the realms book Jeraxle has a disarm attack...I am AFB so I can't say how it works

Flashy Disarm (standard; recharge ) * Weapon
+27 vs Reflex; 3d8+14 damage, and the target drops one weapon it is holding. It lands in a square of Jarlaxle's choosing up to 6 squares away.

It should be noted that Jarlaxle is a 21st level elite NPC (skirmisher). The power sort of matches Exorcism of Steel, except it's 3W instead of 2W, and the weapon flies away farther but Jarlaxle can't catch it himself.