Does 4e limit the scope of campaigns?

And, the 3e DMG tells DMs it is their responsability to know the abilities of their characters in their campaign and to go through the adventure and make the necessary alterations, because the designers don't know your group, what supplements you use, or what house rules you use.

Sounds reasonable to me.
I disagree. it can be a neat information to have, but I shouldn't be required to do it. Especially when you are not using house rules because you're happy with the rules as is and want have an easy time running modules. If I have to modify most of the content of it, this lessens its usefulness a lot.

You also lose a lot of the fun in uncertainity - you don't know if the PCs are "fit" for a challenge. You'll see how they adapt, and you react if they fail or succeed. If you tailor things, you can pretty much predict the most likely case. Now, I will not claim my plots are a masterpiece of avoiding railroads (more the contrary ;) ), but I'd like to have at least this.

There are situations where I want to "tailor" to the PCs specific abilities, but that is usually motivated by setting up scenarios where they can really shine, in turn motivating them to go further in the adventure. And in some other cases to make them feel unsafe and show off their ability to adapt. But I can achieve all this without knowing the specifics most of the time, too.
It is usually more important for character backgrounds to add this in.
 

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There isn't much value in spreading out skills. This isn't a value judgement. This is math. Sorry.


No it isn't. And I demonstrated that to you in my previous post. Just saying it is so; doesn't make it so.

Again it depends on how important skills are in the game, and how often individual successes are important. I just don't see the math you are talking about here. For every post where someone has tried to demonstrate this I have given tons of examples where spreading it out can be just as optimal. Again, you have 40 points to spread out at max rank 5. Why is it always better to put 5 in 8. When you can mix it up and get as many as 13 skills at 3; or not lose the extra skill point and take 5 in 2, and 3 in 10. You have more skills, and they still pretty good. I have done this numerous times, and always made good use of the skills I selected. So you get +3 instead of a plus five. But you can fall back on so many more things. And as I pointed out in another post, when the gap widens, there is nothing bad about having a lot of +7s, and a couple of +13s.
 
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Its worth pointing out then that the Jack of All Trades feat in 4e lets you effectively replicate the "spend a few points in lots of skills" position.
 

Its worth pointing out then that the Jack of All Trades feat in 4e lets you effectively replicate the "spend a few points in lots of skills" position.

I think for people who prefer ranks, it is a matter of controlling your skill level in each skill. I may really want a few +10s, a +5, a couple of +7s, a +8, some +3s, etc. When it comes to 4E, my gripe is the number of skills (not everyone prefers consolidation), and the lack of a point buy system with ranks. This isn't just a 4E thing for me. When I first encountered this approach in star wars saga, I really didn't like it. But I have always been a fan of point buys and ranks. That said, 3E is really the only edition that does that. So 4E is more in keeping I think with previous editions when it comes to skills. But my two favorite things about 3E when it came out were: its skill system and its multiclass system. And I know a number of people who felt the same way. This doesn't make 4E a bad game, it just means, I was expecting something different when it came out (maybe I should have been following the info leaks more). Just like some people prefer Savage Worlds to GURPS (or vice versa), I prefered 3E to 4E, specifically on the subject of multiclassing and skills. I still play 4E; still enjoy it. But if I am going to run a mystery adventure, 3E is probably the system I will use.
 
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Well, after several months of actual play with 4e, I keep coming back to the same old refrain:It *PLAYS* a lot better than it READS, and this includes flexibility.

Survival horror: Maybe it's different at higher levels, but at heroic tier play (we just hit 5th level), Healing Surges are gold. It doesn't matter if you refresh your encounter powers after each little breather, those healing surges don't come back until you've had a good nap, and part of "survival horror" is that the chance for a nap doesn't come up very often. :) Given that a lot of undead "eat" surges, and you can definitely do the "running out of steam/must find someplace safe" game. I understand that at paragon/epic tiers healing surges are less important, but you don't have demigods in a survival horror game, in general.

Non-combat: The main problem with the skill challenge system is that it's virtually a different game -- other than the small number of feats or powers which affect skills, there's no mechanical connection to the rest of the system. (And the connection which does exist is wonky -- since a SC is an "encounter", you can only use a skill-affecting encounter power once, even if if the SC covers hours of time and there's opportunities for 'short rests' during it.) However, if SCs are done well, with an eye towards encouraging roleplaying, they can provide a structured way to resolve out-of-combat encounters without relying on PLAYER skill (One of the issues with role-vs-roll play is, do you let the naturally charismatic person who has no social skills be the faceman because he acts it so well, or do you honor the asocial nebbish with a +20 in Diplomacy with success even when his attempt at winning the favor of the King is 'Yo, king-man! If we save your kingdom, I get to bang your hot wife, right?")

Last Sunday, a large chunk of game time was taken up with social maneuvering/information gathering at a 'coming out' party for a merchant's son. We were basically given a list of NPCs (about 8), and told we needed 12 successes before 6 failures, and which skills could be useful. We couldn't get more than 3 succeses from any one NPC, though. Diplomacy, Streetwise, and Perception (most of us are Trained in at least 2 of those 3) were the key skills, though we could use others if we needed to. We didn't just roll dice, though -- each 'interaction' consisted of description and a good bit of roleplaying -- a few back-and-forths, enough to set the tone and give us an idea of the NPCs personality, without it bogging down too much on any one encounter.

I think the 4e writers, whether by personal preference, editorial fiat, or limited page space, chose to severely downplay non-combat actions or campaigns which were not especially combat heavy. The 3e rulesbooks spent a lot of time on worldbuilding, NPC creation, and so on, and most of this CAN be done just as well in 4e -- but the designers chose to ignore or minimize the book space dedicated to it, giving the impression the game is meant to be played as nothing but a string of encounter set pieces taking place on virtual soundstage. While experienced gamers can use the 4e rules to tell as many stories as the 3e rules (with some tweaking, but had to tweak 3e for a lot of things, too), new gamers will probably not realize the potential exists, and that's a shame.
 

Where I do have a problem is in participation in skill challenges: at present, it seems too easy for a group to find an obvious skill (say Diplomacy for a negotiation) and then have their best character (with aid from the others) just make all the rolls. It's something that I think can be fixed, but needs more thought.

Cheers!

Our solution is simple -- the DM doesn't let us get away with it. He'll either have an NPC directly address a PC or make sure the challenge requires several skills to succeed, you can't get ALL your successes with one skill.
 

No it isn't. And I demonstrated that to you in my previous post. Just saying it is so; doesn't make it so.

Again it depends on how important skills are in the game, and how often individual successes are important. I just don't see the math you are talking about here. For every post where someone has tried to demonstrate this I have given tons of examples where spreading it out can be just as optimal. Again, you have 40 points to spread out at max rank 5. Why is it always better to put 5 in 8.

You've made the assertion that's it worth it, but it's not. You're thinking in terms of one character, and that's a totally screwed-up assumption (well, unless you play solo games, but I don't, and that's not the standard assumption for D&D by a long shot). As has been pointed out up-thread, the vast majority of skill checks are resolved by the single PC who has the highest modifier. It's in the best interest of the party that the 'best' character at any skill is as good as possible. If everybody spreads out their skills, then no one is maxed out, and the party is objectively worse off; you cannot contribute more than a +2 from Aid Another, after all. This is not vector calculus here.
 

Our solution is simple -- the DM doesn't let us get away with it. He'll either have an NPC directly address a PC or make sure the challenge requires several skills to succeed, you can't get ALL your successes with one skill.

This is how I do things as well. It makes individual character creation choices matter more. And it mixes things up a bit.

I think this is a fundamental difference in approach between 3E and 4E. The former places more stock in individual characters, and the later places it in team work. Neither one is wrong, but they do lead to very different games.
 

You've made the assertion that's it worth it, but it's not. You're thinking in terms of one character, and that's a totally screwed-up assumption (well, unless you play solo games, but I don't, and that's not the standard assumption for D&D by a long shot). As has been pointed out up-thread, the vast majority of skill checks are resolved by the single PC who has the highest modifier. It's in the best interest of the party that the 'best' character at any skill is as good as possible. If everybody spreads out their skills, then no one is maxed out, and the party is objectively worse off; you cannot contribute more than a +2 from Aid Another, after all. This is not vector calculus here.

I have not just made the assertion, I have built a case for my position. And I have managed to do it without being insulting. You disagree, and maybe in your games the spread doesn't work, because you rely more heavily on team work. Again, this all depends on how you play the game. Not all adventures are dungeon crawls. City adventures tend to favor characters with spread out skills, as splitting up and following leads independently occurs frequently. You are also assuming that one characters success always makes the whole party succeed, and that is simply not the case with many skill checks (Rondo being able to walk accross the log, doesn't mean everyone else can; Rondo being able to impress the landlord and get a free room, doesn't mean everyone else gets a free ride). Your math makes sense if you can consistently rely on the person with the high skill getting the whole party through. But that isn't how skills are supposed to work. Sometimes it is. But like I said, when you using skills like diplomacy, Rondo making a good impression doesn't automatically mean the whole party does. And your example doesn't account for parties that split up in the city and seek out clues indiviudally (which has happened consistently in every mystery campaign I have run). Nor does it account skills that you must make indivudally (climbing the wall for example).

Drothgery, I am happy to have this discussion with you. But when I make valid points (and I know my points are valid rebuttals here) then please don't respond with snarky remarks about this not being "vector calculus here", or my assumptions being "totally screwed up". I have already established, that individual characters are important in my games, that I try to avoid the one guy succeeds so everyone else does (and I have provided good reasons for why I do it, why it makes sense, and why it leads to more suspense and fun). You have insulted me repeatedly, and implied my math skills are sub optimal. I will not respond to any more of your posts if you insist on maintaining this tone. Especially when you ignore every point I make, in favor of insulting me.
 
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This is how I do things as well. It makes individual character creation choices matter more. And it mixes things up a bit.

I think this is a fundamental difference in approach between 3E and 4E. The former places more stock in individual characters, and the later places it in team work. Neither one is wrong, but they do lead to very different games.

Regarding the original question - how is the campaign scope changed between 3E and 4E due to skill points vs skill training?
 

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