D&D 4E Does 4E still really hate shields?

[Obryn]

Fighters seem to still be best off using two-handed weapons... while Paladin's rock the sword'n'board approach.

Huh. Seems like the opposite to me. Paladins can make up the lost AC more easily, since they start with Plate proficiency.

And, as mentioned below, Tide of Iron is a quite excellent at-will.

-O

 

[James McMurray]

This has probably already been mentioned, but if 4e hated shields, why would it be the first edition to let them grant a bonus to defending against the sorts of things shields have defended against in fantasy for a long time (like dragon fire and explosions)?

 

[brehobit]

Tide of Iron. Push 1 at will is immensely powerful.

Really? I've almost never used it. I find that I want to be next to the baddy so I can wack them if they ignore me. While I can "tide and shift" I've not commonly had _that_ be useful either. I guess with lots of terrain to toss people into, but without that, moderate at best so far. I've pushed people away from downed allies, but only once I think.

What makes it so good? Lots of people like it, so I must be missing something.

 

[Ravingdork]

Really? I've almost never used it. I find that I want to be next to the baddy so I can wack them if they ignore me. While I can "tide and shift" I've not commonly had _that_ be useful either. I guess with lots of terrain to toss people into, but without that, moderate at best so far. I've pushed people away from downed allies, but only once I think.

What makes it so good? Lots of people like it, so I must be missing something.

Keep them away from the squishies, knock them into hazards and traps, move them into flanking positions with the nearby rogue, push them away then run without having to shift for a retreat. Lots and lots of uses.

 

[Nifft]

Really? I've almost never used it. I find that I want to be next to the baddy so I can wack them if they ignore me. While I can "tide and shift" I've not commonly had _that_ be useful either. I guess with lots of terrain to toss people into, but without that, moderate at best so far. I've pushed people away from downed allies, but only once I think.

What makes it so good? Lots of people like it, so I must be missing something.

Pushing monsters off ledges or into pits.

Pushing monsters away from allies (especially monsters which grant or gain benefits from such a configuration).

Pushing monsters into corners.

Pushing monsters out of special terrain features that give them benefits (e.g. magic circles).

Being an Iron Vanguard and dealing +Con bonus damage when you push a monster.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Being an Iron Vanguard and dealing +Con bonus damage when you push a monster.

Cheers, -- N

Ah, so that was my power gaming motivation to consider picking up that paragon path!

 

[Gort]

Really? I've almost never used it. I find that I want to be next to the baddy so I can wack them if they ignore me. While I can "tide and shift" I've not commonly had _that_ be useful either. I guess with lots of terrain to toss people into, but without that, moderate at best so far. I've pushed people away from downed allies, but only once I think.

What makes it so good? Lots of people like it, so I must be missing something.

Also, keep in mind that if you're marking a monster, they can't shift at all without letting you hit them again. So in effect you can shove them exactly where you want them all the time.

So it's great for stuff like pushing the dragon into a corner while your allies stand back, so he can hit only you with his breath weapon and not anyone else, while your party members pelt him with arrows and spells.

Tide of Iron is far and away the best fighter at-will, I'd say. And taking proficiency with bastard swords will let you make up all the extra damage a two-handed fighter does.

 

[Tellerve]

I have Tide of Iron for the fighter I'm running as an NPC for my group and I also haven't found it as useful as I had originally thought. I still think it is a good at-will and won't change it out, but just not as great as I thought.

Combat Challenge allows you to attack once, it is an immediate interrupt, which you only have one of, so shield push and smacking swarming kobolds hasn't seen me using it as much as I thought. Also, pushing creatures off ledges hasn't been overly great either as they get a saving throw to avoid falling.

So, yeah, mostly I've been using Cleave as I've been trying to reduce the amount of enemies around me as opposed to pushing my way into them and allowing them to swarm around me. Kobolds Shifty ability helps them in this regard obviously.

Tellerve

 

[Nifft]

Ah, so that was my power gaming motivation to consider picking up that paragon path!

Iron Vanguard is seriously one of my favorite Paragon Paths.

Remember that picture of the Paladin in Hell who's relentlessly stabbing fiend after fiend, a seemingly endless stream of evil flowing towards him, only to be split by his sword like the Red Sea before the vengeful word of an angry god?

In 3.5e, that was a Crusader. In 4e, it's an Iron Vanguard.

Cheers, -- N