Does a publisher/author's interaction here influence your purchases?

[BryonD]

This is an interestingly recursive statement, since a reputation for fleecing other people is entirely different than a reputation for not being polite. Which again begs the question of what you care about more. If it's the latter, I would say those are some skewed priorities.

It is not recursive because in order for it to be so one must pre-suppose that there are in fact NOT two sides to the story.

If your side of the story is completely true, then you have my sympathies. But there is simply no way I can just presume that. I am in no way accusing you of lying. But, recalling the reputations part, it is easy for me to think that you may be telling the complete truth from yoru side and there still be more to the story.

I'm sorry if you don't like that bed, but you are the one that made it.

Frankly, what I'm hearing is, "I don't care what's right or wrong, ad long as people are polite," which is a pretty screwed up point of view, if you ask me.

Not at all. You're failing to take into account that an independent reader should carefully consider fact vs. claim before moving on to even considering right and wrong.

 

[Crothian]

(Yawn)... did you say something?

(Shrug). I dig denizens. But I have a stack of complimentary books I still owe reviews on. One must have priorities.

I know and understand. Just teasing you Psion!!

 

[turbo]

Frankly, what I'm hearing is, "I don't care what's right or wrong, ad long as people are polite," which is a pretty screwed up point of view, if you ask me.

That's what you're hearing throughout this entire thread, that's why there are so many 'yes' replies, and that's more evidence that the RPG industry remains at nothing more than the hobby level--in sense, eyebeams, you're wrong to expect professionalism in this arena.

 

[BryonD]

That's what you're hearing throughout this entire thread, that's why there are so many 'yes' replies, and that's more evidence that the RPG industry remains at nothing more than the hobby level--in sense, eyebeams, you're wrong to expect professionalism in this arena.

Yeah, right. Just keep saying that and eventually it will come true.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Except that one of us did not try to exploit the other.

"exploit" is about motivations. What in his side of the story are you saying is in factual error?

You could call it that. I might call it, "something I would have called the cops about eventually if I'd lived in the same region as Neal." You just don't seem to understand the severity of the situation.

I understand exactly, but you don't seem to understand that your personal vendetta is just that. For me at least, it's gone beyond "getting the facts out there" and into "trolling a publisher". I'm not saying you're wrong for never working for the guy again, or that you should like the guy, or that when his name comes up you shouldn't say "we had a bad business deal" with some details, but at this point it's just a dead horse with a side of sour grapes.

And here, you continue to really, really not get it. I wonder how often I have to say this:

Why do you always have to be 100% right? If someone only agrees with you 90%, why must you act like this?

Do you get it yet? Do you understand that if I take something you write, transfer it to .pdf without telling you and sell it, it's tatamount to stealing something you own and fancing it? Can you yet comprehend that the only reason Neal's actions are not criminal is because I was nice enough to offer him a way to avoid being a crook?

Did I steal from you? If not, then why must you treat everyone like they're attacking you?
Try this, he didn't steal from you. He didn't find your material and use it. You submitted material and he used it without a deal being reached and without timely compensation. You continue to try to elevate it beyond a contract dispute, like he raided your house, kicked your dog and abused you. Others of us just don't see it as being that severe.

It sure is easy for Neal to be humble. Those words are a small price next to a token fee and four years of sales, aren't they?

He admitted to everything, I don't see "humble". It may not have been a tearful apology on his knees, but he admitted to guilt. How long ago was this? The impression I get is that he's regretful and you're spiteful, so if my posts seem slanted towards his side, that's why. In this situation, he was totally wrong and he admits it. You have no claim to the four years of sale, you ended the negotiations. You should have stuck to your guns and you could now be claiming he never paid you.

If you really believe that politeness more important than an ethical imperative to avoid lying, stealing or cheating, I have nothing in common with you.

strawman.
I'm not talking about what he did, or what you did. This is a thread about public perception and it's effects on purchases. If you are continually abrasive and abusive to other peoples opinion, it will affect things. For your above statement to be true, I'd have to be buying his products because he was a polite theif, and that's simply not true.

 

[Vocenoctum]

That's what you're hearing throughout this entire thread, that's why there are so many 'yes' replies, and that's more evidence that the RPG industry remains at nothing more than the hobby level--in sense, eyebeams, you're wrong to expect professionalism in this arena.

That's not what has been said at all.
In the case of Eyebeams vs Tensen, Tensen admitted fault, the case is closed. Now we're just discussing why eyebeams attitude will harm his sales from us. It's not that we have to choose between the two, we can simply choose neither, it's a free market.

As far as a Hobby Level, I think it's the other way. Some publishers consider themselves artists that don't have to deal with the customer, and whose interactions with those customers don't have a direct effect. Instead, they should consider themselves a producer of material who also directly markets to their audience. The lack of professionalism in those dealings will have an effect.

And moreso, when an author enters a discussion about his product by ignoring the concerns of the customer, it sends a clear message to the customers that his products are not worth their continued purchase. If the author can't discuss his products without getting defensive and attacking his customers, then he shouldn't participate in that discussion.

The funny part is, it's only a matter of time before an author or two reports people for "personal attacks", even though the author introduces himself into the ongoing discussion and incites it. Again, it's easy to disregard the opinion of the "those idiots on the internet".

 

[JVisgaitis]

And moreso, when an author enters a discussion about his product by ignoring the concerns of the customer, it sends a clear message to the customers that his products are not worth their continued purchase. If the author can't discuss his products without getting defensive and attacking his customers, then he shouldn't participate in that discussion.

I agree that if an author can't discuss his product objectively then he shouldn't show himself on a message board at all. What I don't understand is: "when an author enters a discussion about his product by ignoring the concerns of the customer, it sends a clear message to the customers that his products are not worth their continued purchase."

Maybe I'm just too pumped up with cold medicine to think clearly on this, but how is an author ignoring concerns of a customer by entering into a discussion on a product? I can see that from the standpoint if the author is being belligerent... I don't know. I don't think I get what your saying.

 

[eyebeams]

That's what you're hearing throughout this entire thread, that's why there are so many 'yes' replies, and that's more evidence that the RPG industry remains at nothing more than the hobby level--in sense, eyebeams, you're wrong to expect professionalism in this arena.

You said it. To be fair, though, there are folks who understand that stealing is not a harmless misunderstanding and people who judge quality and honesty before their sentimental concerns.

 

[eyebeams]

That's not what has been said at all.
In the case of Eyebeams vs Tensen, Tensen admitted fault, the case is closed. Now we're just discussing why eyebeams attitude will harm his sales from us.

The answer appears to be that anybody with a damaged moral compass would feel that attitude trumps dishonesty. I do not feel the need to support this perspective any more than I would support RPG piracy. In fact, piracy is less reprehensible than selling somebody else's work. Pirates don't make money off of purloined work.

It's not that we have to choose between the two, we can simply choose neither, it's a free market.

Actually, free markets depend on honest economic actors, but apparently theft and deception do not concern certain people as much as whether or not they like what people say on an online forum.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I agree that if an author can't discuss his product objectively then he shouldn't show himself on a message board at all. What I don't understand is: "when an author enters a discussion about his product by ignoring the concerns of the customer, it sends a clear message to the customers that his products are not worth their continued purchase."

Maybe I'm just too pumped up with cold medicine to think clearly on this, but how is an author ignoring concerns of a customer by entering into a discussion on a product? I can see that from the standpoint if the author is being belligerent... I don't know. I don't think I get what your saying.

Keeping in mind, I don't have Avadnu yet, so this discussion can't have happened.
Lets say I get concerned because Avadnu has too many beetles in it.
You tell me I'm not understanding your product in an haughty manner.
"Well, there's plenty of stuff besides beetles, the fans don't like beetles."
"You obviously don't know anything about game design, beetles are an important part of society and just because you're too stupid to understand their importance doesn't affect our product."

So, now I have a clear idea that not only do you not understand what I as a customer wants, but you'll think your opinion of what I want is more important than mine. It's perfectly clear to me that I don't need any of your products, and don't want you having my money anyway.

If you enter a discussion about a product of yours with an open mind and explain why it's full of beetles, fine. If you say "I like beetles, sorry" I can even accept that and will just make sure to look at the next product before buying it. If you can't remain objective, then just don't say anything. Telling me why my opinion is wrong works the opposite way.

I think that's part of what is wrong with too many of the discussions. A fan may have a strongly held opinion, but when a publisher or author regards their work as fact, rather than opinion, there's no reason to continue with that publisher. A lot of the recent Industry threads have had a lot of publishers telling fans what they want, rather than asking.

Hopefully that makes more sense.