Does anyone know how to pronounce Latin?

The Other Librarian said:
In the end, if you look at things in a historical context, English's couple hundred years (at best) dominance as a lingua franca will have maybe a similar impact as Latin or French had on the formation of English.

Well, I would say English's role as a Lingua Franca is less than 100 years. I don't think it really became an international langauge the way it is now until after WWII. IT was spoken widely in the British Empire, but it wasn't used as a default language for international communication during hte 19th century.
 

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The thing about widely used lingua franca's though, is that they can remain current even after the power that originally spread them is long gone. Remember how long Akkadian or Aramaic were lingua franca's of the ancient Near East? Or how about Latin, speaking of Latin, which was used for hundreds of years after it was no longer anyone's native language.

My original point was that Sanskrit had a very similar history to Latin in a lot of ways; it was spread as a liturgical language long after it was "gone" as a current language for Buddhism just as Latin was for Christianity. It has a similar scope (albeit somewhat more geographically confined) as the mother language of current spoken languages; vast swaths of Indic languages are descended from it, just as Spanish, Portuguese and French, etc. were spread globally as descendents of Latin.

Maybe tarchon has it right; for a while there was a very common Goropian fallacy that credited Sanskrit with much greater "Indo-European purity" than is warranted, so it made quite an impression on scholarly studies of Indo-European for a long time, but that era is mostly long past.
 

johnsemlak said:
Well, I would say English's role as a Lingua Franca is less than 100 years. I don't think it really became an international langauge the way it is now until after WWII. IT was spoken widely in the British Empire, but it wasn't used as a default language for international communication during hte 19th century.

I'll agree. I remember my great-uncle telling me how back in his day (before the WWII; he was born in 1909) French was the language primarily used in international communication (he called it "the language of diplomacy"). In fact, IIIRC, he learned english only during the WWII (at that point he spoke italian, french, german, and had studied extensively latin and greek).
 

johnsemlak said:
Well, I would say English's role as a Lingua Franca is less than 100 years. I don't think it really became an international language the way it is now until after WWII. IT was spoken widely in the British Empire, but it wasn't used as a default language for international communication during hte 19th century.

I was taking the long view, for the sake of argument. Starting with the spread of English through British Imperialism, and projecting into an indefinite future. Clearly though it had influence before being adopted as a lingua franca. ( See it's adoption as the primary language in North America, which could as easily have gone to spanish, french or german.) My point is that even if you give English as the dominant langauge a generous reign, it will still only amount to at most 200 years. Not a huge amount in the long historical view.

Which is not to say that English will not end up being an influential or historically important language. I'm just saying the jury is still out, we won't really know until after our time. The Internet is really going to affect the way languages are used and disseminated, and Asia, China esp. is already starting to creep up on English in terms of volume. Asia is also outstripping the US in terms of access and broadband penetration, so the future of Asian languages on the net looks strong. Couple that with the increasing technological power and economic might of China and I think the chance for a Mandarin explosion is strong.

But as English already has strong penetration, I don't think it's going to vanish completely anytime soon. I think in scientific discourse, at the very least, it would become the "liturgical language". That's why I made the Firefly reference; I don't think Wheedon's english/chinese melange is too far out of the question.
 
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Here's the full breakdown, folks. Pronunciation of Latin letters in the Classical and Ecclesiastical/Medieval/Late dialects. Off the top of my head:

A - [ɑ], as in pot.
Ā - [ɑ:], as in father, held half again as long as the short vowel.
B - {b} as English. In Classical Latin, /bs/ are /bt/ is devoiced and pronounced [ps] and [pt] (urbs, "city", is pronounced [ʊrps] in Classical Latin, but [urbs] in Late Latin).
C - [k]. A /c/ is always prounounced [k] in Classical Latin. In Late Latin, /c/ is pronounced [k] before back vowels (/a/, /o/, and /u/), and as [ʧ] (like English church) before front vowels (/i/, /e/, /y/, /æ/, and /œ/). In Scientific Latin, the /c/ softens even further before front vowels, to [ts] in German pronunciation and simply in British and French pronunciation.
D - [d], as in English.
E - [ɛ] in Classical Latin, as in English get. [e] in Late Latin, as in English date.
Ē - [e:], as in English make.
F - [f], as in English.
G - [g] as in give. A /g/ is always pronounced [g] in Classical Latin. In Late Latin, /g/ is prounounced [g] before back vowels, and [ʤ] as in English gem before front vowels.
H - [h]. In Classical Latin, the /h/ is always sounded, as is typical in American English. In Late Latin, an /h/ is often silent, as in British English, except in mihi and nihil, when it's pronounced as [x], the voiceless velar fricative of Scottish loch or German ich.
I - [ɪ] in Classical Latin, as in English pit. {i} in Late Latin, as in Frech sit.
Ī - [i:], as in English speed.
J - [j], as in English yes. A /j/ is simply a consonantal /i/, and /i/ is always pronounced this way when it begins a word and is followed by a vowel; or when it is the second part of a dipthong and is followed by a vowel: iaceo/jaceo, iuris/juris, cuius/cujus, eius/ejus.
K - [k], used in Latin only for transcribing Greek words, and even then, the Romans much prefered to use /c/ or /q/. In very early Latin, the Romans followed the same rule that the Etruscans pretty much made up, using "c" (gamma) before /i/, /e/, and /o/, "k" (kappa) before /a/, and "q" (qoppa) before /u/, but by the Classical period, /c/ was the standard spelling, /q/ was relegated to instances of the /qu/ diconsonant, and /k/ was hardly used at all.
L - [l], as in English.
M - [m], as in English, but in Classical Latin, a final -um was probably pronounced [ũ], nasalizing the vowel and dropping the consonant, like in modern French bon [bõ].
N - [n], as in English.
O - [ɔ] in Classical Latin, as in caught. [o] in Late Latin, as in English go.
Ō - [o:], as in boat.
P - [p] as in English.
Q - [k], and as in English, is typically followed by a consonantal /u/, pronounced [kw].
R - [ɾ] in Classical Latin, a tongue flap, as in the way Americans say letter or ladder. If written double, /rr/, the pronunciation was a velar trill, [r], as in Spanish and Italian /r/ (not French, which is a uvular trill). In Late Latin, /r/ is always trilled.
S - , as in English.
T - [t], as in English.
U - [ʊ] in Classical Latin, as in English put. {u} in Late Latin, as in English do.
Ū - [u:], as in English pool.
V - [w] in Classical Latin, and [v] in Late Latin. As with i/j, u/v are actually the same letter.
W - Never occurs in Latin, except as a /uu/ ligature.
X - [ks] in Classical Latin. Sometimes voices to [gz] between vowels in Late Latin.
Y - [y] in Classical Latin, as in German ü or French u. In Late Latin, always treated just like /i/.
Ȳ - [y:] in Classical Latin, as the German and French sounds held half again as long. In Late Latin, treated as /ī/.
Z - [dz]. Only prounoucned [z] in modern Scientific Latin.
CH, PH, TH - In Classical Latin, they represented Greek chi, phi, and theta and were simple aspirated consonants, pronounced [kh], [ph], and [th]. In Late Latin, /ch/ and /ph/ can be pronounced [x] and [f], but /th/ is still pronounced [th], not [θ].
AE, OE - Classical Latin dipthongs, pronounced [ɑj] and [oj], like English pie and oil.
Æ, Œ - Late Latin simple vowles, treated as /e/.
AU, EI, EU - Dipthongs appearing in both Classical and Late Latin, pronoucned [ɑw], [ej], and [ew].
UI - Dipthong pronounced [uj], and only appears in huius/hujus, hui, cuius/cujus, cui, & huic..
SC - Always [sk] in Classical Latin. In Late Latin, [sk] before back vowels and [ʃ] (as English sh) before front vowels.
XC - Always [ksk] in Classical Latin. In Late Latin, [ksk] before back vowels and [kʃ] before front vowels.
GN - [ŋn] in Classical Latin, as in hangnail (magnus sounds like "mang-nus"). In Late Latin, [nj], as in modern French and Italian (magnus sounds like "man-yoos").
TI - Always [ti] in Classical Latin. In Late Latin, [ti] after an /s/ or /x/, but [tsi] after all other letters.
 
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The Other Librarian said:
I was taking the long view, for the sake of argument. Starting with the spread of English through British Imperialism, and projecting into an indefinite future. Clearly though it had influence before being adopted as a lingua franca. ( See it's adoption as the primary language in North America, which could as easily have gone to spanish, french or german.) My point is that even if you give English as the dominant langauge a generous reign, it will still only amount to at most 200 years. Not a huge amount in the long historical view.
Completely agree
Which is not to say that English will not end up being an influential or historically important language. I'm just saying the jury is still out, we won't really know until after our time. The Internet is really going to affect the way languages are used and disseminated, and Asia, China esp. is already starting to creep up on English in terms of volume. Asia is also outstripping the US in terms of access and broadband penetration, so the future of Asian languages on the net looks strong. Couple that with the increasing technological power and economic might of China and I think the chance for a Mandarin explosion is strong.
That's interesting, but rememeber that 'Asia' is a broad term. I don't know the stats, but I find it hard to believe that more than 3-4 Asian countries actually have wider broadband acess than the US, and China isn't one of them (at least per capita).


Another important point to consider is what langauges are taught. I don't know how widely Chinese is studied in Asia outside of China, but it is still a relatively rare langauge to be studied in the West. As I remember in Korea it was quite rare; Japanese was far more common (and English much much more common). I think the writing system is a big barrier for people to learn Chinese, as well.

English is taught as the foreign langauge of first choice in nearly every country in the world (except English speaking ones obviously, and even there it's taught a lot to immigrants and foreign students). There's a vast network of teaching schools, and high quality textbooks/materials are available everywhere. This could change, but it would take time for the resources to teach Chinese to develop.

Certainly, I wouldn't deny the possibity of Chinese to overtake English sometime in the future. But the situation as it is now shows that's a long way off, and I"m not sure if ti's really moving in that direction.
 

johnsemlak said:
That's interesting, but rememeber that 'Asia' is a broad term. I don't know the stats, but I find it hard to believe that more than 3-4 Asian countries actually have wider broadband access than the US, and China isn't one of them (at least per capita).

My source on this is from the recent conference hosted by Google in CA. The Charlie Rose show held a symposium there of various internet/techie luminaries which was broadcast over the last 3 or so days. People like Bill Joy and CEOs of companies like Cisco, Google, Yahoo, Intel, Sun etc. (as well as some tech investment firms) all seemed to agree this was the case. China may not yet be there per capita, but is moving much more rapidly and efficiently than the US. Smaller countries like Korea and Singapore are already there. Note that they were speaking of a broad definition of broadband access, not just cable to homes, but internet cafes, wireless and cellular devices etc. They also agreed that Mandarin is poised to overtake English on the Web in term of volume of pages. One basic analogy used was that of the industrial revolution, which began in Britain, but it was the US that really "ran with it" and used its advances to become a behemoth economy/world power.

Obviously a lot of my theory is speculation, just as much as it's speculation to cement English's final historical role just yet. But I think there is compelling evidence that a sea change may not be that far off, historically speaking. Like I said, maybe not in our lifetimes, but in the generations that follow.
 

just a correction, the official liturgical language for buddhism is pali, which is a step or two closer to sanskrit than, say, hindi or the other modern indian languages are (which descended from sanskrit via the prakrit, a language on the same level as pali or so)

otherwise, i love this discussion =)
 

I was talking about the liturgical language of Buddhism 500-1000 years ago or more. Sanskrit spread as a liturgical language into the Tarim Basin, at least, along with Buddhism. In fact, the linguistic situation in the Tarim Basin before it become Turkic is one of the most interesting I've ever read, frankly. Chinese was an administrative language, various Indic "Prakrits" and liturgical Sanskrits were the religious languages, east-Iranian languages like Sogdian and Saka were the trade languages, and Tocharian languages were the day-to-day languages. And most people spoke (and used daily!) this interesting melange of languages depending on what social situation they found themselves during the day.
 


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