Does Hide = invisibility?

[Dracuwulf]

Lets say a Rogue hides without anyone seeing him, then moves into a room where combat is taking
place.

Is he effectively invisible?

If so, does he receive the +2 attack bonus against sighted opponents (3.5 DMG 301) in addition to
ignoring their Dex bonus?

Lets say his Hide result is really good, 35 lets say. From my understanding, a creature would have to beat
it with a Spot check of 35 or higher. Would the enemies in the room automatically receive a Spot check if
they never saw the Rogue?

In the 3.5 DMG, on page 295, it says "a creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible
creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check" Doesn't this mean that if creatures using Hide (if its
basically invisibility) are likewise detectable, instead of rolling a DC 35 Spot check as above?

If there is a document somewhere explaining Hide, I'd really appreciate it if anyone could point it out.
The PHB left me perplexed and the DMG only explains invisibility.

Thanks,
Dragonhunter

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

One thing to remember about hide is that you either need concealment (ie hiding in the shadows or behind curtains) or cover (hiding behind a wall) for it to be effective.

AR

 

[melkoriii]

Lets say a Rogue hides without anyone seeing him, then moves into a room where combat is taking
place.

Is he effectively invisible?

If so, does he receive the +2 attack bonus against sighted opponents (3.5 DMG 301) in addition to
ignoring their Dex bonus?

Lets say his Hide result is really good, 35 lets say. From my understanding, a creature would have to beat
it with a Spot check of 35 or higher. Would the enemies in the room automatically receive a Spot check if
they never saw the Rogue?

In the 3.5 DMG, on page 295, it says "a creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible
creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check" Doesn't this mean that if creatures using Hide (if its
basically invisibility) are likewise detectable, instead of rolling a DC 35 Spot check as above?

If there is a document somewhere explaining Hide, I'd really appreciate it if anyone could point it out.
The PHB left me perplexed and the DMG only explains invisibility.

Thanks,
Dragonhunter

To hide you need cover or concelment. If this is from a Dark room remember that if you dont hae Darkvision or Lowlight then your opponent also has concelment.

If you have the cover/concelment then you can try and hide (rolling your skill) and enemies roll spot.

You are not invisable but get the same advantages as an invisable attacker. (+2 to hit, foe being dexless)

 

[Dracuwulf]

So you're saying if the room is brightly lit, the thief immediately becomes "visible" when he enters the room?

 

[Dracuwulf]

I just looked up hide in the PHB again and it says:

"You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check"

Later on, it says "If people are observing you, even casually, you can't hide. You can run around the corner or behind cover so that you're out of site and then hide..."

So, it seems to me that my example is valid... the rogue is out of the room, attempts the hide check, then is hidden. He moves into the room hidden. He doesn't become visible when he enters the room.

Seems like invisibility to me?

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Well if the hiding rogue comes in the room but in said room there isn't any cover or concealment, he's going to have a hard time staying hidden, IMO. Of course, unless there's a 500-watt ambient light, there's a good probability that there WILL in fact be some shadows (ie concealment) in the room.

Also, unless the rogue only moves, and at half speed, he'll have some pretty steep penalties to his hide check, IIRC.

AR

 

[Chroma]

So, it seems to me that my example is valid... the rogue is out of the room, attempts the hide check, then is hidden. He moves into the room hidden. He doesn't become visible when he enters the room.

Well, the question still remains: What is the rogue hiding behind/within when he enters the room?

If it's just an open, lantern-lit doorway, there's no cover or concealment, so he's no longer hiding. If it's filled with flickering shadows from a guttering torch, then he's got concealment from normal sighted foes. If the rogue is carrying a section of shrubbery in front of them, well, the rogue is hidden, but suspicions will be aroused...

 

[Dracuwulf]

Well, thats an interesting point: basically, how often do you have to make a Hide check to hide? It seems to me that you just do it at the start, and then you are hidden. So the rogue is hidden, moves into the room, and as long as he's in there he's hidden, until he attacks it seems. argh...

 

[Dracuwulf]

Well, the question still remains: What is the rogue hiding behind/within when he enters the room?

If it's just an open, lantern-lit doorway, there's no cover or concealment, so he's no longer hiding. If it's filled with flickering shadows from a guttering torch, then he's got concealment from normal sighted foes. If the rogue is carrying a section of shrubbery in front of them, well, the rogue is hidden, but suspicions will be aroused...

The hide skill seems to indicate that you only need cover or concealment when first rolling the Hide check:

"You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a hide check"

Later on, "Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement..."

1) Hide outside room (hidden from view... remember "you can run around a corner or behind cover so that you're out of sight and then hide",

2) move into brightly lit room,

3) attack enemy with +2 attack bonus, enemy gets no dex, and you get sneak attack damage

 

[Shayuri]

I think it's important to use the rules in this situation as groundwork for a logical ruling...but not to expect them to lay out every last detail. Hiding encompasses too many variables and situations to explicitly print rules for all of them. Some DM discretion is required.

In all circumstances, the salient question is: What is the character hiding in?

There MUST be something.

In your example, the rogue ducks around the corner. He's now hiding behind the wall (using cover). When he tries to sneak back in, you must make some judgements before he even comes into view. Firstly, is there some kind of cover or concealment in that doorway that could reasonably be used to block sight? You might even decide that cover or concealment -near- the door way could work, since the rogue could zip through the door, crouching low, and hope no one's looking for that one second it took him to get in. Perhaps assess a mild penalty of -5 or -10, depending on how far it is.

But if we're talking an empty room that's well lit and has no reasonable way of hiding in it (no tables, no chairs, no potted plants or thick, large shadows)...then he can't hide. Simple as that. If he has a Hide modifier of +50, he STILL can't hide. Hiding is -not- invisiblility.

This applies even to special Hides, like a shadowdancer or ranger's use of Hide in Plain Sight. That ability only allows you to ignore the usual constraint of not hiding when you're being observed (ie - if someone sees you duck behind the chair, they still know where you are...thank you object permanance ). It doesn't remove the requirement for there being something to hide in or behind.

That aside, I would rule that an attack from a hidden location has all the limits and bonuses of an invisible attack. In some circumstances I might allow a last-second Spot check on the part of the victim to see the attack as he comes out of cover. But most rogues worthy of the name would attack by surprise from behind anyway, which would certainly not allow such a check.

YMMV, of course, but 'common sense' rulings have an important place in the game when they grow organically out of the "foundation" rules in print.