D&D 5E Does Magic Initiate need changing?

[Horwath]

I don't think this is a good way to look at it, especially at high levels considering the way cantrips scale. The power in MI is mostly in the cantrips.

For example, something like Toll the Dead at 11th level is going to do 3d12 every turn all day long (occasionally 3d8), Thunderclap can do 3d6 to everyone within 5 feet. No 1st level spell and few second level spells are going to match that turn after turn. Those cantrips alone have more impact than the whole Fey touched feat at this level and that is before you consider the 1st-level spell, which in this example can be any Wizard, Sorcerer or Warlock spell you want.

that is why neither of those 2 feats 2nd level spells are damaging spells. Because they do not scale properly.

But Bonus action teleport is always useful. So is invisibility. Not many monsters have permanent see invisibility/true seeing.
At higher level, that spell just need to be used proactively rather than reactively, as see invisibility becomes relatively more cheaper to carry around in case of emergency.

as for MI's 1st level spell, you should never take damaging spells.

Absorb elements, Shield, Silvery barbs are good to have at all levels. Faery fire, Tasha's hideous laughter are also useful for many levels.

Cantrips are not useful at higher levels, simply that they cost action to cast, and if combat lasts for 5 rounds only, you might not find time for that one action to spare. Scaling just makes them an option to use. making 1d12 damage only at 11th level(if cantrips do not scale) is complete waste of action and cantrip known slot. I would rather have mending or dancing lights instead.

 

[Charlaquin]

But unless it was on your list already, you only got 1 casting a day.

I now let it just add the spell to your list regardless, in line with the other feats that add casting.

Yeah, I think that’s the most needed change to it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think it mostly depends on the usefulness you think you will get from the cantrips for Magic Initiate. If we compare the feats, they all give you one 1st-level spell of your choice once per long rest. The differences are:

Magic Initiate:
2 cantrips of your choice (including attack/damage cantrips, which scale), usable at will

vs.

Fey/Shadow-Touched:
A specific 2nd-level spell (misty step or darkness) usable once per day, but can be cast again using available spell slots (if any)
A +1 to INT, WIS, or CHA.

Now, the +1 ASI is of course very good, and IMO puts these new feats slightly ahead of Magic Initiate probably for many players. BUT I don't think it is so much more powerful that Magic Initiate needs anything more of its own.

Feats will never be completely balanced because each one depends on how much you think you will get for it. Some will always feel unbalanced to others. We all (hopefully) know there is power creep in later materials and Tasha's certainly has its share.

 

[Ancalagon]

I don't think this is a good way to look at it, especially at high levels considering the way cantrips scale. The power in MI is mostly in the cantrips.

For example, something like Toll the Dead at 11th level is going to do 3d12 every turn all day long (occasionally 3d8), Thunderclap can do 3d6 to everyone within 5 feet. No 1st level spell and few second level spells are going to match that turn after turn. Those cantrips alone have more impact than the whole Fey touched feat at this level and that is before you consider the 1st-level spell, which in this example can be any Wizard, Sorcerer or Warlock spell you want.

the "trick" is to pick spells that are relevant no mater your level. Misty step is useful at level 3, and still good at level 12. Damage spells would be a mistake (save cantrips, for the reasons you say)

 

[FrogReaver]

Magic initiate is already one of the best feats in the game.

Specific Builds.
Rogues for Booming Blade cantrip.
Light Cantrip for Variant humans.
Mind Silver cantrip on eldritch knights to help set up your other casters (great with level 7 feature that lets you cantrip and bonus action attack).
Expeditious Retreat spell for any melee characters.
Silvery Barbs to help any caster land his control effect (it's also only a reaction).
Find Familiar - amazing spell on any character
Sorcerers due to their limited spells known (1 extra even sorcerer spell is amazing).

Honorable mention but probably not quite as good as the above.
Absorb Elements
Shield
Healing Word
Mage Armor

 

[ECMO3]

Cantrips are not useful at higher levels, simply that they cost action to cast, and if combat lasts for 5 rounds only, you might not find time for that one action to spare. Scaling just makes them an option to use. making 1d12 damage only at 11th level(if cantrips do not scale) is complete waste of action and cantrip known slot. I would rather have mending or dancing lights instead.

But cantrips do scale and that is the point. Being able to use cantrips over and over and over is going to be more powerful and useful than being able to cast one misty step (or one extra misty step if you are a caster).

Booming Blade on an 11th level Rogue is a flat +2d8 when he makes his sneak attack, not counting the 3d8 movement damage he can realize fairly often. That is more powerful than one misty step or one invisibility even without the second cantrip and when we compare the 1st level spells the Rogue can get any spell from the Wizard, Sorcerer or Warlock lists to combine with it. Not just one from two specific schools.

A Forge Cleric with Green Flame Blade and a Greatsword can do 5d6+1d8+str at 11th level. With an 18 Str that is 26 damage. That is roughly the same base damage as a Raging Barbarian, Ranger or Paladin using extra attack with the same greatsword (and ahead of a dex Ranger) and it is before you consider the 3d6+W (14.5) he can deal to an enemy nearby.

 

[ECMO3]

Magic initiate is already one of the best feats in the game.

Specific Builds.
Rogues for Booming Blade cantrip.
Light Cantrip for Variant humans.
Mind Silver cantrip on eldritch knights to help set up your other casters (great with level 7 feature that lets you cantrip and bonus action attack).
Expeditious Retreat spell for any melee characters.
Silvery Barbs to help any caster land his control effect (it's also only a reaction).
Find Familiar - amazing spell on any character
Sorcerers due to their limited spells known (1 extra even sorcerer spell is amazing).

Honorable mention but probably not quite as good as the above.
Absorb Elements
Shield
Healing Word
Mage Armor

Agree.

The only thing I would argue is that Absorb elements and Shield are better than Silvery Barbs and Find Familiar IME, maybe not on a Rogue for shiled, but on other classes I think those are at least as good.

I would add Hex into that list too. This is a nice 1-hour long damage boost for a non-caster, while also doing things like enhancing Hide on a Rogue (hexing Wisdom), making it easier to grapple or shove (hex STR/Dex) or more difficult to break out of grasping arrow or spells allies cast that require checks to get out of (Web, Entangle, Evard's tentacles...)

 

[Ancalagon]

I think it mostly depends on the usefulness you think you will get from the cantrips for Magic Initiate. If we compare the feats, they all give you one 1st-level spell of your choice once per long rest. The differences are:

Magic Initiate:
2 cantrips of your choice (including attack/damage cantrips, which scale), usable at will

vs.

Fey/Shadow-Touched:
A specific 2nd-level spell (misty step or darkness) usable once per day, but can be cast again using available spell slots (if any)
A +1 to INT, WIS, or CHA.

Now, the +1 ASI is of course very good, and IMO puts these new feats slightly ahead of Magic Initiate probably for many players. BUT I don't think it is so much more powerful that Magic Initiate needs anything more of its own.

Feats will never be completely balanced because each one depends on how much you think you will get for it. Some will always feel unbalanced to others. We all (hopefully) know there is power creep in later materials and Tasha's certainly has its share.

I mostly agree with you, perfect balance is impossible. I guess my question is if the difference is "acceptable" or if it's too wide. I feel it's sort of at the edge between acceptable and needing a tweak.

Incidentally, I think shadow-touched grants invisibility, not darkness, but that's just a detail. However, fey/shadow touched also grants a first level spell (with limited school choice), that is not nothing. Does that change your mind?

 

[Sacrosanct]

I don't think MI is overrated or outclassed at all. You get to choose what your spell is, for one. And as mentioned, cantrips can be cast over and over unlike those other feats.

My monk with MI (eldritch blast and hex) was highly effective because if that. Scaling ranged attack that monks are normally weak at, AND a spell that partners well with FoB? Yes please.

I have a rune knight right now with MI. Thorn whip to bring in the opponent when they are just out of range and jumping 60ft (jump) to get to the casters in the back have been highly effective.

 

[Ancalagon]

But unless it was on your list already, you only got 1 casting a day.

I now let it just add the spell to your list regardless, in line with the other feats that add casting.

I have read that technically speaking, you can't re-cast the magic initiate spell with other slots from your class. Perhaps changing that would help make it more "competitive"?