Does Polymorph restrict size-changes?

[Thanee]

"form" is the keyword.

As I said, read with more precision, than you might see it eventually.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nareau]

Good points, all around. As you might know, I tend to treat the rules as an abstraction of fantasy tropes, not as the (meta)physics of my fictional world. That said, I see two options:

1) Let Polymorph change size by more than 1 category.
2) Restrict Polymorph's forms to within one size of the original.

Let's look at the implications of both:

1: This is the more powerful version of Polymorph.

It allows for many, many more forms, thus opening the door to abuse.

It also allows for more flexibility, and therefore more fun for the players.

2: This less powerful option is easier to adjudicate, as there are fewer forms available.

It severely limits the utility of the spell for small casters. Polymorph is often used to assume a combat form, and most good combat forms are Large.

Human wizards in fantasy literature are constantly turning into birds to travel, scout, etc. This version would prevent a Medium wizard from turning into a Tiny bird. That's dumb.


Finally, Iku posted something that convinced me Thanee's right:

Let's see what you consider a "newer, more inclusive text" with regards to size.

The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. --alter self
You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, ... -- polymorph

The way I see it, the new/different information in Polymorph replaces and supercedes the corresponding information in alter self. It's not like the rules in Polymorph are there to further limit Alter Self.

Therefore, the limit of "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine" replaces "The new form must be within one size category of your normal size". The "smaller than fine" limit really isn't a limit at all; it allows for any size category to be assumed.

Spider

By the way--where the heck in Hypersmurf through all of this? What do we pay him for, anyways?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Iku Rex:

5 hit dice is included within 15 hit dice
your own type is included within the line "your own type, or any of the following"

In exactly the same way
'within one size category of your own' is included in 'no size smaller than fine'

Therefore there are two ways of consistently ruling these sections. The result of these two ways are that either
a) polymorph is alter self, but at a higher level
b) polymorph allows the assumption of forms with up to 15 hit dice, of a type that is your own, or any others on the list, and is any size larger than fine (which basically means that no form above huge can be assumed due to the way hit dice work).

Do you understand where the argument I'm making is coming from here? I don't think I can make it any simpler.

Finally - shrew isn't specced out in the books, so we can safely assume that the creature being talked about in poly any object must have as many hit dice as a manticore.

OTOH, it becomes pretty difficult to work out the examples where an object is turned into a creature, because an object has no hit dice to speak of...

 

[ThirdWizard]

Except it never explicitly overwrites this restriction. At best it implies it.

Then it doesn't overwrite the 5hd limit either, it just specifies another condition which is more broad (albeit pointless...). Same goes for type.

ex·plic·it
adj.

1. Fully and clearly expressed; leaving nothing implied.

It sets a downward limit, but it never explicitly sets an upward limit.

 

[Thanee]

It sets a downward limit, but it never explicitly sets an upward limit.

No, it does not, of course. It's vague. But from the other information we have, it should be clear enough, what is meant there (see above posts for details).

Finally - shrew isn't specced out in the books, so we can safely assume that the creature being talked about in poly any object must have as many hit dice as a manticore.

OTOH, it becomes pretty difficult to work out the examples where an object is turned into a creature, because an object has no hit dice to speak of...

"The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level."

From the context, it sounds like the part in parantheses might not apply to PAO, but as written, it surely does.

Ah, well, maybe they will manage to make unambiguous spell descriptions in 4th edition...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Iku Rex]

No, I'm telling you that all three restrictions are overruled... HD, type and size, because these are the limits for the "form", which Polymorph excepts from the inherited rules.

Yes, I saw your baseless claim the first time. Why are you repeating it as if it's somehow relevant to my reply to Saeviomagy?

Yes, since the intent is clear from both the RotG article and the PAO spell, I'm looking mostly for an explanation, how this might be meant (it obviously is meant that way, so that is out of question, anyways).

Like I said, your reasoning for why the "intent is clear" from the PaO spell is faulty.

And like I said: There's no indication that Skip Williams was directly involved in making the 3.5 alter self/polymorph, or that he ran the article by someone who was (and who read it carefully).

If I show that Skip Williams disagrees with some of your interpretations, will you then abandon the claim that the article must represent the letter and intent of the rules?

The only tricky part is to understand, what they mean with "form", but thinking about it for a moment, can only lead to this conclusion, as otherwise the rules have way too many parts that make absolutely no sense at all (like the redundant Fine limitation, which can only be seen as an overly cautious approach).

The word "form" has no special meaning in polymorph - polymorph any object too changes you into another form.

The rules do not make any more sense with your interpretation. You tried to show that, and failed miserably.

 

[Thanee]

Yes, I saw your baseless claim the first time. Why are you repeating it as if it's somehow relevant to my reply to Saeviomagy?

Hey, if you do not want any replies, then you just have to say so.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Wow. I found some of the arguments here (like the HD one) stretching so far that they broke (in fact, the FAQ had a Wildshape/Polymorph explanation very similar to the HD one here and they ruled against that argument).

I agree with Iku.

The "any size" camp is totally relying on inferences not explicitly stated in the text.

I think that WotC might have wanted it to be any size, but they did not clearly state that. And without clearly stating it, the "any size" argument falls completely apart. Wanting a sentence to mean more than what it actually states is a common rules interpretation mistake.

There is an explicit statement that Polymorph "functions like Alter Self except", but the elements after that exception can only be used if they are explicit, not if they are inferred. There is no explicit size range stetement in Polymorph, hence, the size range from Alter Self must be used. There is an explicit size minimum statement, but it can only be used for minimums. There is an explicit form statement, but that cannot be used for size since you must use all restrictions on the spell, you cannot just drop some of them (like size) because a given form is outside the range of that restriction.

I also suspect that some people here may be strongly polarized on how this works based on how they want it to work (or have been using it) in their game.

 

[Thanee]

I also suspect that some people here may be strongly polarized on how this works based on how they want it to work (or have been using it) in their game.

LOL, actually we were using the +/- 1 size limitation (since it really isn't intuitively obvious, that it doesn't apply) for quite some time. Also the hit points do not change, if your Con score changes.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

There is an explicit form statement, but that cannot be used for size since you must use all restrictions on the spell, you cannot just drop some of them (like size) because a given form is outside the range of that restriction.

That's what I did in my "form argument", actually... I dropped *all* restrictions from Alter Self placed on the form (that is HD limit, size limit and type limit; also because all three of them are renewed in Polymorph and thus probably meant to be "overwritten").

Alter Self allows you to assume a form (defined as your own type, max 5 HD, within +/- 1 size category).
Polymorph allows you to assume another form (other than that defined by Alter Self), therefore the restrictions for the form do no longer apply. New ones take their place (specific type list, max 15 HD, size from Fine to unlimited).
Polymorph Any Object further builds upon that by allowing objects to be altered or assumed, mental stats to be assumed and alters the duration.

Bye
Thanee