D&D 5E Does/Should D&D Have the Player's Game Experience as a goal?

[Imaro]

Burning Wheel, Torchbearer2e, Rolemaster - those are the ones I'm familiar with.

Thanks @pemerton... I'm going to do a quick google search just to see what the prevailing attitude about these guidelines are for each game...I'm curious if most people feel they work or not.

 

[Imaro]

So from a thread on the ICE forums titled... What is Wrong with Rolemaster...


"RM system isn't bad, it works quite fine until you come to the magic items/herbs part, which are clearly based on a completely different scale. Really, they make absolutely no sense compared to all the other things.
And no, imo the "prices are there only as a reference" and "magical items aren't to be sold" arguments are not very strong.
If prices are there only as a comparison, that should be another reason for them to make sense! A price based on a totally different scale than everything else is not really helpful if you're trying to compare the value of two items.
And if magic items aren't to be sold, then just say so in the book! That would be much better than giving weird prices (that make people think that the items are actually purchasable)."

"Where it all falls apart is the cost of magic, be it items or spell casting fees. Herbs in particular are rediculous. If I don''t outright change the cost, I start by reducing magic items to a silver base in cost and herbs to a Bp base )don't get me started on the broken time for production rules in Treasure Companion...perfect for an elven society, crap for us lesser mortals). This brings herbs in particular into line with the economy and makes them expensive but affordable to the middle class, who generate 3-10x the base line income."

"The cost of magic items and other economics of magic really depend on how magical the setting is. In a rare magic setting, forget hiring mages, you are questing to even find them, and magic items are super rare as well. In a common magic setting with lots of high level casters, it makes sense to have rates to hire a caster and magic items should be common enough that they are feasible to buy. Not sure a single set of guidelines can cover both possibilities, it might be better to discuss them in the context of setting and give two or three options."

"I'd rather see guidelines, given the way some folks can latch onto rules. So much of how cheap/expensive magic items are relates directly to the magical prevalence/power level of the setting, along with tech levels and resource availability. I adjusted most costs to suit my world, which was mid-level in terms of magic stuff (nowhere near as common as, say AErth) and fairly advanced when it came to metals and mining. Herbs had a sliding cost based on where they came from and rarity. Some of the RM2 stuff was pretty useful for this, but it always felt like something that was tacked on to the basic rules."


Well that all sounds familiar...

 

[Imaro]

From a thread on the BW/Torchbearer forums entitled... Creation of Magic Items

"I’m thinking about making some magic items for my campaign but, is there something like a template i could use to balance them within the rules. How can i figure out what levels are my items?"

"I asked this a long time ago (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/s...-item-creation-guidelines&p=139056#post139056 3) and it didn’t go anywhere, unfortunately. The best thing you can do is stay close to the magic items given in the book and maybe even use the spells and prayers as a guideline. Charges and the chance for something to be destroyable also helps to keep balance. My players like magic items and like giving them, so I just compile lists of items that I can give out whenever. I’ll steal flavor from other games and make up my own magical traits for Torchbearer."

"Yeah, there aren’t any rules for it and the items in the book are as good a template as any. In terms of balance, I also start with what I want the item to do and then balance it by placing restrictions on it, like:

One-use only
One use per phase
Only usable during a particular phase
Limited Charges
Must fulfill some condition before being used again
Can only be used in certain conditions (i.e. Total Darkness, When You Have X Condition, etc)

The range of possible effects is too big to really list out and range from bonuses to certain rolls to flat out breaking the rules. I always prefer the more creative ones as opposed to the more mundane +1D items, though both definitely have their use.

Edit: I always feel like the item is done when the restriction makes sense within the fiction, too. One Level 1 item I made, “The Sunshard Ring” allowed the user to make it glow like a Torch once per Adventure phase. This coincides with a day/night cycle as they have to camp in order to call on the power again."

So I'm confused @pemerton on whether there are actual guidelines for magical items in Torchbearer or not. This thread makes it seem like it's mostly guesswork...

 

[SableWyvern]

So from a thread on the ICE forums titled... What is Wrong with Rolemaster...


"RM system isn't bad, it works quite fine until you come to the magic items/herbs part, which are clearly based on a completely different scale. Really, they make absolutely no sense compared to all the other things.
And no, imo the "prices are there only as a reference" and "magical items aren't to be sold" arguments are not very strong.
If prices are there only as a comparison, that should be another reason for them to make sense! A price based on a totally different scale than everything else is not really helpful if you're trying to compare the value of two items.
And if magic items aren't to be sold, then just say so in the book! That would be much better than giving weird prices (that make people think that the items are actually purchasable)."

"Where it all falls apart is the cost of magic, be it items or spell casting fees. Herbs in particular are rediculous. If I don''t outright change the cost, I start by reducing magic items to a silver base in cost and herbs to a Bp base )don't get me started on the broken time for production rules in Treasure Companion...perfect for an elven society, crap for us lesser mortals). This brings herbs in particular into line with the economy and makes them expensive but affordable to the middle class, who generate 3-10x the base line income."

"The cost of magic items and other economics of magic really depend on how magical the setting is. In a rare magic setting, forget hiring mages, you are questing to even find them, and magic items are super rare as well. In a common magic setting with lots of high level casters, it makes sense to have rates to hire a caster and magic items should be common enough that they are feasible to buy. Not sure a single set of guidelines can cover both possibilities, it might be better to discuss them in the context of setting and give two or three options."

"I'd rather see guidelines, given the way some folks can latch onto rules. So much of how cheap/expensive magic items are relates directly to the magical prevalence/power level of the setting, along with tech levels and resource availability. I adjusted most costs to suit my world, which was mid-level in terms of magic stuff (nowhere near as common as, say AErth) and fairly advanced when it came to metals and mining. Herbs had a sliding cost based on where they came from and rarity. Some of the RM2 stuff was pretty useful for this, but it always felt like something that was tacked on to the basic rules."


Well that all sounds familiar...

For reference, as someone who's run a lot of Rolemaster, I divide the herb prices by 100, which I believe is a fairly common house rule, and helps integrate the herbs in a much saner fashion into the wider economic system.

For magic items, I make substantial adjustments to the treasure tables, pricing, availability etc and then further adjust from campaign to campaign depending on my needs (which, as you imply, is not dissimilar to what I do with magic items in any game with a D&D lineage).

 

[Imaro]

For reference, as someone who's run a lot of Rolemaster, I divide the herb prices by 100, which I believe is a fairly common house rule, and helps integrate the herbs in a much saner fashion into the wider economic system.

For magic items, I make substantial adjustments to the treasure tables, pricing, availability etc and then further adjust from campaign to campaign depending on my needs.

Yeah I was seeing that as a pretty common thing on the forums while looking through them but I think it just highlights what I and @Oofta have been stating. The Devs for 5e could have thrown something together for 5e but we'd all just be complaining about it being bad design and trying to design for our own specific campaign worlds anyway. The only way I see this working is in a game that highly constrains the type of campaign you could run or that seriously downgrades the power of magic items.

 

[SableWyvern]

Yeah I was seeing that as a pretty common thing on the forums while looking through them but I think it just highlights what I and @Oofta have been stating. The Devs for 5e could have thrown something together for 5e but we'd all just be complaining about it being bad design and trying to design for our own specific campaign worlds anyway. The only way I see this working is in a game that highly constrains the type of campaign you could run or that seriously downgrades the power of magic items.

Yes, there seems to be an argument that providing a clear and rigorous system is a good thing, without regard for whether or not that system is actually useful.

Further to that, everyone seems to be pretty clear on what the potential pitfalls of the more ad hoc earlier methods were, so I'm not convinced they were really all that opaque.

 

[pemerton]

I'm confused @pemerton on whether there are actual guidelines for magical items in Torchbearer or not. This thread makes it seem like it's mostly guesswork...

I have very little knowledge of the first edition of Torchbearer.

Torchbearer 2e has the Enchanter skill in the Loremaster's Manual, and the Alchemist skill in the Dungeoneer's Handbook. There are also examples of alchemical item capabilities in the LMM. Unsurprisingly, the broad framework for these skills is similar to the rules for Enchanting in Burning Wheel's Magic Burner (Revised ed) / Codex (Gold ed).

The rough but workable rule is that the Ob to create/enchant an item is the same as the Resources Ob to acquire it.

The Elven Dreamwalker PC in my Torchbearer campaign has both these skills, and has an Instinct that, when camping, she will always prepare salves or elixirs. Although last session this test failed . . . it turned out that the Gnolls had wrecked her alchemical tools when mucking about with her backpack.

 

[Imaro]

I have very little knowledge of the first edition of Torchbearer.

Torchbearer 2e has the Enchanter skill in the Loremaster's Manual, and the Alchemist skill in the Dungeoneer's Handbook. There are also examples of alchemical item capabilities in the LMM. Unsurprisingly, the broad framework for these skills is similar to the rules for Enchanting in Burning Wheel's Magic Burner (Revised ed) / Codex (Gold ed).

The rough but workable rule is that the Ob to create/enchant an item is the same as the Resources Ob to acquire it.

The Elven Dreamwalker PC in my Torchbearer campaign has both these skills, and has an Instinct that, when camping, she will always prepare salves or elixirs. Although last session this test failed . . . it turned out that the Gnolls had wrecked her alchemical tools when mucking about with her backpack.

Thanks... If you don't mind answering...What are the guidelines as far as balancing the powers of these items? Also are you able to sell them and if so how are prices determined?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Every campaign, all the players, all the DMs, every encounter is the same? Really?

Your ridiculous hyperbole does you no favors.

It turns out that, while each individual person is distinct, overall experiences are in fact very similar in many ways. It turns out that, while the fine details are almost always totally unique, the broad strokes are in fact the same for large swathes of people. It turns out that, while the precise, millimeter-by-millimeter trajectory won't ever match, the mile-by-mile trajectory is often indistinguishable, at least with a large chunk of others' experiences.

And mile-by-mile stuff is where the games' rules live. If they're well-made, anyway. You design the rules for the stuff most people are reasonably likely to encounter, or that when encountered would really benefit from having a pre-established method. If people still run into situations that weren't foreseeable, then yes, it's up to them to figure that out, that's how every open-ended game works, period.

Pretending that there are absolutely no commonalities between ANY two games EVER is possibly the most ridiculous hyperbole I've ever seen on this board. Or, if you prefer the Bard's way of putting it: "If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that."

 

[Hussar]

Burning Wheel, Torchbearer2e, Rolemaster - those are the ones I'm familiar with.

Funny how every time people ask about what how these impossible things could possibly appear in other games... they actually do.

And it's funny how magic item price lists have appeared in EVERY SINGLE edition of D&D other than 5e, yet, it's apparently an impossible task that could never work. 1e had price lists for every magic item. 2e listed the items by xp value. 3e and 4e both set values for magic items.

But, apparently 5e is so different from every edition that came before it that it is impossible to have a transparent system for magic items and it's impossible to have a set of guidelines that at least suggest how magic items could be valued relative to each other. And, now, every table is so massively different from every other table that they share absolutely nothing in common, resulting in it being utterly impossible to draw any commonalities across the community.

It must be amazing. I had no idea that my PHB was specifically written for my table only and no one else's PHB was even written in the same language. Funny that.