Does sniping while hidden deal sneak attack damage?

[Hypersmurf]

That sort of changed a while ago now with the expansion books. Several abilities let you treat an opponent as if they are flat footed after the round started.

Indeed. But invisibility isn't one of them.

"A character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flat-footed" is much the same as "A character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe nauseated"... being considered invisible is irrelevant to either purpose.

-Hyp.

 

[Diirk]

Should I point out that the Invisibility description says:

"Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any)."

and since the see invisibility spell doesn't actually remove the invisible state, it just lets you see them anyway... an invisible creature still gets the +2, denies you dex to ac and thus can sneak attack you regardless of the fact you're watching him do it, right ?

Which pretty much makes it clear that being able to see or not see something has no bearing on whether it denies you dex or not !

 

[billd91]

Should I point out that the Invisibility description says:

"Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any)."

and since the see invisibility spell doesn't actually remove the invisible state, it just lets you see them anyway... an invisible creature still gets the +2, denies you dex to ac and thus can sneak attack you regardless of the fact you're watching him do it, right ?

Which pretty much makes it clear that being able to see or not see something has no bearing on whether it denies you dex or not !

In this, I believe, you are wrong. See invisible does not remove the invisibility power from the attacker, true. But it does remove the definition that allows the condition to apply. The attacker using the invisibility power, when attacking someone who is using see invisible, is not 'visually undetectable'. If that does not apply, the condition does not apply.

For what it's worth, I believe the FAQ is in error when referring to invisibility imposing flat-footedness. Flat-footedness has other complications (see Combat Reflexes). They should have just left it at imposing loss of Dex or mentioned the invisible condition and left it at that.

 

[Diirk]

In this, I believe, you are wrong. See invisible does not remove the invisibility power from the attacker, true. But it does remove the definition that allows the condition to apply. The attacker using the invisibility power, when attacking someone who is using see invisible, is not 'visually undetectable'. If that does not apply, the condition does not apply.

Thats not right; it doesn't say "because you are now visually undetectable you get +2 to attacks and deny opponents their dex bonus" it says "Visually Undetectable. +2 to attacks and deny opponents dex".

Two seperate results stemming from the same cause. Just because 1 result is removed, doesn't mean the other necessarily is.

 

[irdeggman]

There are a few other things that can impose the flat-footed condition - balancing, Flick of the Wrist feat, Raptor School tactical feat, Confound the Big Folk tactical feat...

Invisibility, however, is not one of them.

-Hyp.

Of course WotC is now violating their own rule of precendents by insinuation. And per that the PHB is the definitive source for combat rules all others, unless otherwise specifically stated (like mentioning it changes the rule like Complete Arcane and Swift and Immediate actions), are overruled by this.

At least with Immediate and Swift actions they specifically stated they were new and that things like Feather Fall were now Immediate actions.

Per the PHB (better defintion than the SRD) {I need to check the later printing to make sure they didn't change it}:

flat-footed: Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

WotC has gone to great lengths to define terms a specific way for game use and it is extremely poor editing when they don't catch these things on a repeated basis. All it would have taken was a "redefinition" but that has not happened yet so the PHB definition is supposed to take precedent and thus render all of these other "new" feat and ability benefits moot {real bad ruling but technically correct}. Whereas what the "proper" thing to do would have been to insert that the character is denied his Dex bonus to AC and can't make AoO {which appears to be what they had meant only they got lazy when writing}.

 

[hong]

Of course WotC is now violating their own rule of precendents by insinuation. And per that the PHB is the definitive source for combat rules all others, unless otherwise specifically stated (like mentioning it changes the rule like Complete Arcane and Swift and Immediate actions), are overruled by this.

... what?

WotC has gone to great lengths to define terms a specific way for game use and it is extremely poor editing when they don't catch these things on a repeated basis. All it would have taken was a "redefinition" but that has not happened yet so the PHB definition is supposed to take precedent and thus render all of these other "new" feat and ability benefits moot {real bad ruling but technically correct}. Whereas what the "proper" thing to do would have been to insert that the character is denied his Dex bonus to AC and can't make AoO {which appears to be what they had meant only they got lazy when writing}.

Luckily the intent is clear, regardless of whether every T is crossed and every I is dotted. And in the end, that's all that's needed to run a game.

 

[Vengeful]

flat-footed: Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Flat-footed refers to any time you lose your dex bonus and can't make an AoO. When you are invisible and you attack someone, they are Flat-footed with regards to you, which is a special case. IE: They lose their Dex bonus against YOUR attack and they can't make AoO against YOU.

True Flat-footed states do only occur at the beginning of combat, in which you lose your dex bonus against ALL attacks and you cannot make AoOs against ANYONE.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Flat-footed refers to any time you lose your dex bonus and can't make an AoO.

Not necessarily.

"Apples are red and round" means that if something is an apple, it is red and round; it does not mean that if something is red and round, it is an apple.

I can be denied my Dex bonus and unable to make an AoO without possessing the flat-footed condition. However, if I do possess the flat-footed condition, I am denied my Dex bonus and unable to make an AoO.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

Okay, this debate is devolving into silliness. WOTC violating their own rules and therefore their new rules are not valid? Come on now. What's with the heightened level of rigidity?

 

[irdeggman]

Flat-footed refers to any time you lose your dex bonus and can't make an AoO. When you are invisible and you attack someone, they are Flat-footed with regards to you, which is a special case. IE: They lose their Dex bonus against YOUR attack and they can't make AoO against YOU.

True Flat-footed states do only occur at the beginning of combat, in which you lose your dex bonus against ALL attacks and you cannot make AoOs against ANYONE.

So if it only occurs at the beginning of battle (per the glossary in the PHB) then how can it occur at any other time?

"flat footed with regards to you" can only apply as specified in the definition in the PHB (since WotC did not redefine it at all). So this special condition still doesn't define that it means anything different than the glossary states. Since the very first sentence in the glossary states that it is "at the beginning of battle", how can it mean anything else?


My point was that they, WotC was not accurate at all it what they attempted with these new times you can be flat-footed. And since they did not, did not, specify that this is a new definition of "flat-footed" then per their own rules the PHB takes precedence and nullifies what they just printed.

Calling it flat-footed means a lot more than merely denying Dex mod to AC and no AoO. For one you can't take a swift action.